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BH abilities cost less than Troopers

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Trooper
BH abilities cost less than Troopers

Dr_Kid's Avatar


Dr_Kid
01.20.2013 , 07:43 PM | #1
Figured I would repost this as it would get more attention in the Trooper forum.

After recently comparing my Vanguard and Powertech on my ship's training dummy, I had found a rather major problem. Almost all of my Powertech's abilities cost less energy.
Here is the energy mechanic of both classes.
Bounty Hunters have 100 Heat.
Their primary attacks, (Pyro Spec) Flame burst, rocket punch, thermal detonator, explosive dart and rail shot. All cost 16 Heat.
Other abilities with an advantage would be Electro Dart and Carbonize. CC abilities costing 8 heat.

Troopers have 12 Ammo for their energy mechanic.
Their equivalent attacks to Pyro spec (Assault Spec) Ion pulse, stockstrike, assault plastique, sticky grenade and high impact bolt. All cost 2 Ammo, basically 16.666 Heat
Their CC abilities Cryo grenade and Neural Pulse all cost 1 Ammo, equal to 8.333 Heat

Here’s what I saw with testing.

My Powertech was able to consecutively use 9 Flame Bursts (16 heat) with 4 extra heat left over.
My Vanguard was able to consecutively use 8 Ion Pulses (“16.666 heat”) with 9% extra ammo left over.
It’s easy to compare both classes, if you mouse over your Ammo. “Ammo level = 100%”

Using one Ion Pulse brought my Ammo level to 83%, rounded down from 83.333%
Using a Flame burst brought my Heat to 16 basically 84% remaining.

The bigger impact is on Energy Regeneration levels. Both classes regenerate the exact amount in relation to their pools.
Bounty Hunters: Fast 5/sec, 5/100 = 5%. Moderate 3/Sec = 3% Very Slow is 2/Sec = 2%
Troopers: Fast .6/sec, .6/12 = 5%. Moderate .36/Sec .36/12 = 3% Very Slow is .24/Sec = 2%


On my Trooper: 3 Ion Pulses brought me down to Moderate, 7 Ion Pulses brought me down to Very Slow
On my BH: 5 Flame Bursts brought me down to Moderate, 8 Flame Bursts brought me down to Very Slow
BHs get to fire off 1 to 2 more attacks before suffering from reduced energy regen.
Attacks such as Flame Thrower/Pulse Cannon, Death From Above/Mortar Volley, Flame Sweep/Explosive Surge, Missile Blast/Explosive Round, Incendiary Missile/Incendiary Round do not have this problem as they cost identical amounts of energy.
25 heat/ 100 = 3 Ammo / 12
The only time troopers have an advantage is with talented abilities that grant 1 Ammo every 6 seconds. (8.333 heat) compared to bounty hunters getting only 8. However this does little to off-set the increased costs of every other ability.

This bug affects all Trooper Vanguard and Commando abilities costing 1 or 2 Ammo, resulting in lower DPS or HPS compared to an equally geared and skilled Bounty Hunter.

Edit- A sample fix without completely redoing the 12 Ammo system (making it 100 Ammo to almost identical to heat)
Quote:
A fix to this problem should be relatively simple, All abilities that cost 2 Ammo should be reduced to 1.92 Ammo
1.92/12 = .16 which is equal to 16 Heat
All abilities that cost or grant 1 Ammo should be reduced to .96 Ammo
.96/12 = .08 which is equal to 8 Heat.
This bug also appears to affect Commando 4 Ammo abilities, although to a lesser extent. Mercs abilities cost 33 Heat, Commandos cost 33.333 heat. A reduction from 4 Ammo to 3.96 would also resolve this issue. 3.96/12 = .33

Tooltips for 1 Ammo, 2 Ammo and 4 Ammo abilities can remain the same (not displaying decimals) to prevent confusing new players, but mechanically they should be using the exact same costs as Bounty Hunters.

EDIT-2 (Edit 3- Further testing indicates bug with Energy Regen shown below is entirely graphical, see post http://www.swtor.com/community/showt...90#post5808690 for more details

It seems I also missed the huge difference between regeneration intervals between both classes that further contributes to this problem.
Here are the percentage Intervals between Troopers and Bounty Hunters.
Troopers
At 66.66% Ammo Remaining (8 Ammo), Troopers Get Moderate Regeneration.
At 25% Ammo Remaining (3 Ammo), Troopers Get Very Slow Regeneration.
Very Fast Regen has a range of 33.33%, Moderate a range of 41.66%, Very Slow a range of 25%.

Bounty Hunters
At 60% Heat Remaining, BHs get Moderate Regeneration
At 20% Heat Remaining, BHs get Very Slow Regeneration.
Very Fast Regen has a range of 40%, Moderate a range of 40%, Very Slow a Range of 20%

In addition to the reduced costs, it appears BH's also get generally higher overall Regeneration, (They can burn 40 Heat and stay in very Fast Regen, Vanguards can only burn 33.33% Ammo before dropping to moderate.) This also constitutes to a DPS Improvement, as well superior burst potential.

Sample fix to this problem. Moderate Regen should start at 7.2 Ammo not 8.
7.2/12 = 60%
Very Slow Regen should start at 2.4 Ammo not 3.
2.4/12 = 20%

Semiramis's Avatar


Semiramis
01.20.2013 , 09:34 PM | #2
Very interesting! Thank you for the maths! That's the problem with decimal numbers. Fractions are of course much better, but which computer is calculating in fractions... So, if the decimal-resolution higher, it is automatically much more exactly in counting. I wish, there would be an easy solution, but there isn't. It's a pity!

Llama-Eight's Avatar


Llama-Eight
01.21.2013 , 06:58 AM | #3
I don't know why they didn't/don't make the Trooper have 100 ammo, then the Trooper/BH could be completely equivalent to as many decimal places as you want! Mwahahahahahahahah

Gyronamics's Avatar


Gyronamics
01.21.2013 , 08:23 AM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by Dr_Kid View Post
This bug affects all Trooper Vanguard and Commando abilities costing 1 or 2 Ammo, resulting in lower DPS or HPS compared to an equally geared and skilled Bounty Hunter.
And yet when people post their DPS logs it doesn't actually happen like that.

Emptying a full bar is not a good test since the best players stay in high regen as much as possible.

The rounding may also apply to costs as well as total points but you don't get to see it.
Hotwired @ Not Good Enough @ ToFN

Dr_Kid's Avatar


Dr_Kid
01.21.2013 , 12:46 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Gyronamics View Post
And yet when people post their DPS logs it doesn't actually happen like that.

Emptying a full bar is not a good test since the best players stay in high regen as much as possible.

The rounding may also apply to costs as well as total points but you don't get to see it.
This bug has a huge impact even at high regen levels. The main problem is that BH attacks cost 4% less energy, in a long term PVP or PVE engagement, that means the trooper will be forced to use the auto-attack more often just to remain in the high regeneration level, which results in a DPS or HPS loss.

I've already checked for rounding. If you mouse over your ammo bar, it's shown in terms of percentage, which can easily be compared to heat. 25% Ammo = 100-75 Heat (25 heat left over)

A fix to this problem should be relatively simple, All abilities that cost 2 Ammo should be reduced to 1.92 Ammo
1.92/12 = .16 which is equal to 16 Heat
All abilities that cost or grant 1 Ammo should be reduced to .96 Ammo
.96/12 = .08 which is equal to 8 Heat.

Gyronamics's Avatar


Gyronamics
01.21.2013 , 11:01 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Dr_Kid View Post
This bug has a huge impact even at high regen levels. The main problem is that BH attacks cost 4% less energy, in a long term PVP or PVE engagement, that means the trooper will be forced to use the auto-attack more often just to remain in the high regeneration level, which results in a DPS or HPS loss.

I've already checked for rounding. If you mouse over your ammo bar, it's shown in terms of percentage, which can easily be compared to heat. 25% Ammo = 100-75 Heat (25 heat left over)

A fix to this problem should be relatively simple, All abilities that cost 2 Ammo should be reduced to 1.92 Ammo
1.92/12 = .16 which is equal to 16 Heat
All abilities that cost or grant 1 Ammo should be reduced to .96 Ammo
.96/12 = .08 which is equal to 8 Heat.
What proof is that?

All that % is showing is ammo translated into % in steps of 1/12.

You keep referring to the number of pips as if they are based on a different regen formula.

If they are using the same regen as a BH but not displaying a whole ammo until it can be rounded up in a step of 1/12 then the regen is exactly the same at all times.

The same applies to the costs, 1 ammo doesn't have to be 1 ammo.

The only proof in any of this is a dev reply on internal mechanics (and pigs might fly) or some extremely tedious testing by hand.

You believe that Troopers pay more for their attacks.

This is provable, set up a macro to click at a fixed interval so that both classes slowly drop into lower regen.

Over a long enough period of time the one with the highest cost will dip into lower regen first and this can be seen on a combat log as less attacks.


Unless of course my theories on them being identical are true in which case they will never differ because it's all just a graphical rather than a mathematical difference in their action points.
Hotwired @ Not Good Enough @ ToFN

Dr_Kid's Avatar


Dr_Kid
01.22.2013 , 12:44 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Gyronamics View Post
What proof is that?

All that % is showing is ammo translated into % in steps of 1/12.

You keep referring to the number of pips as if they are based on a different regen formula.

If they are using the same regen as a BH but not displaying a whole ammo until it can be rounded up in a step of 1/12 then the regen is exactly the same at all times.

The same applies to the costs, 1 ammo doesn't have to be 1 ammo.

The only proof in any of this is a dev reply on internal mechanics (and pigs might fly) or some extremely tedious testing by hand.

You believe that Troopers pay more for their attacks.

This is provable, set up a macro to click at a fixed interval so that both classes slowly drop into lower regen.

Over a long enough period of time the one with the highest cost will dip into lower regen first and this can be seen on a combat log as less attacks.


Unless of course my theories on them being identical are true in which case they will never differ because it's all just a graphical rather than a mathematical difference in their action points.
The percentage Ammo is shown is the actual amount, not the number of pips. I use Ion Pulse twice and it drops down to 76% with 9/12 Ammo then a second later it goes to 81% still with 9/12. A Macro is also unnecessary due to the Global Cooldown being exactly 1.5 seconds. As I mentioned in the first post, When I use Ion Pulse 3 times (exactly 4.5 seconds) I dropped down to Moderate Regen, then the base regen would put me back into Fast.
4 Ion Pulses (exactly 6 seconds) would fully submerge me into Moderate regen.

A Bounty Hunter can use their Flame Burst 5 times (exactly 7.5 seconds) before being fully submerged into Moderate

I did another test, I used Ion Pulse, followed by a Hammershot, Basically I fired Ion Pulse exactly every 3 Seconds. It took 14 Ion Pulses to hit moderate Regeneration.
In comparison, I did the exact same test on my Powertech. Flame Burst, Rapid Shots, Flame Burst. I was firing Flame Burst every 3 Seconds due to GCD. It took me 48 Flame Bursts before I hit Moderate regen.

Cost is definitely the issue. My Powertech was able to use Flame Burst about 3.5 times more than my Vanguard, before finally hitting moderate regen. A difference that big cannot be due to random chance.

Gyronamics's Avatar


Gyronamics
01.22.2013 , 09:45 AM | #8
But you're still relying on what the graphics say rather than actual output.

If the graphics are simply too clumsy then what you see may not be what you get.
Hotwired @ Not Good Enough @ ToFN

Dr_Kid's Avatar


Dr_Kid
01.22.2013 , 11:29 AM | #9
Ran the exact same test twice until I physically was unable to activate either Ion Pulse and Flame Burst,
Using Ion Pulse every 3 seconds (Hammershots as a filler) My Vanguard was able to activate 29/27 Ion Pulses before completely running out of Ammo.

My Powertech using Flame Burst every 3 seconds (Rapid Shots filler) was able to activate 54/56 Flame Bursts before completely maxing out heat.

As before, definitely a problem with the cost, not the UI.

revansowns's Avatar


revansowns
01.22.2013 , 11:35 AM | #10
Only one solution:

BIOWARE NERF POWETECHS PLEASE
The Darkslayer Legacy
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