Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Nerf Mercenaries


Phrase's Avatar


Phrase
01.19.2013 , 11:58 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by FREDDOSPWN View Post
I see that many people are trying to turn this into a Mercenary vs Commando thread. This is supposed to be a Trooper vs Bounty Hunter thread, focusing on how the Empire get an unfair advantage.
To be fair, you're the one who titled the thread "Nerf Mercenaries" as opposed to "Nerf Bounty Hunters." While it's likely you meant this just to be inflammatory and incite thread views, it hardly seems reasonable to complain that others have steered the discussion in this direction.

Sixgun
The Bastion

FREDDOSPWN's Avatar


FREDDOSPWN
01.19.2013 , 12:06 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Phrase View Post
To be fair, you're the one who titled the thread "Nerf Mercenaries" as opposed to "Nerf Bounty Hunters." While it's likely you meant this just to be inflammatory and incite thread views, it hardly seems reasonable to complain that others have steered the discussion in this direction.
You are correct. I did do that as the main focus is on Mercenaries and Commandos. I do not want this to be to the exclusion of Vanguards and Powertechs though, as they are more commonly taken in ranked warzones.

Edited Example Two on the main post to address the issues of rounding people have brought up.

cashogy's Avatar


cashogy
01.19.2013 , 01:31 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Macroeconomics View Post
That's because the Commando is better. There are three (3) reasons for this, and they all revolve around the fact that the Commando has the advantage of having only a single weapon.

1) Since the Commando does not have a low accuracy offhand weapon, he has a much lower need for Accuracy and can stack Power instead.

2) Since the Commando does not have a low accuracy offhand weapon, he triggers Retaliation/Riposte from enemy melee dps much less frequently. And enemy melee dps are the bane of Commando/Merc.

3) Since the Merc has an offhand weapon his abilities are resolved using an attack system that chops the attack into many smaller pieces. The Merc needs to get a crit hit on ALL of these multiple attacks in order to get the true burst effect from Surge. For example if both the Merc and the Commando have a 50% critical hit chance on RailShot/HiB and a 75% Surge rating, the Merc has only a 25% chance (0.5^2) of doing 175% of his base damage with RS, while the Commando has a 50% chance of doing 175% of his base damage. Thus the Commando has more burst than the Merc.

All you need to remember about class balance in ToR is one golden rule: Merc is the WORST class in the game. Period.
um, Rail Shot does not use the offhand weapon. the only Merc abilities that use offhand damage are Rapid Shots, Power Shot, Unload, and Sweeping Blasters. everything else is mainhand, and functions as such.

Zakmonster's Avatar


Zakmonster
01.19.2013 , 01:33 PM | #24
I will repeat myself: there isn't a mechanical difference in the resources of the BH and the Trooper - they both use heat. It's just a different visual representation.

However, I cannot find the source of this information, so it might just be pure speculation.

The only way we can test it is to take a BH and a Trooper, both level 10 and without an advanced class. Strip them of their gear, don't spend any talent points. Head to a training dummy and use Explosive Round/Missile Blast repeatedly for 10 minutes and tally the number of times each class manages to use the ability in the time period. Tests must be done on the same computer and same Internet connection, to prevent any kind of bias.

If it is true as you say and the BH has a slight advantage, this kind of repeated action will provide an obvious result.

If it ends up being exactly the same, then I've been proven right.

Macroeconomics's Avatar


Macroeconomics
01.20.2013 , 10:53 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by FREDDOSPWN View Post
If the off-hand hits, a Mercenary does more damage. If the off-hand misses, the Commando does more damage. Therefore, the Mercenary will out damage the Commando in 67% of situations. They also have better burst.
This is irrelevant without taking into account the magnitude by which each side does more damage. If we have a dice game in which a 6 sided die is rolled and if a "6" is rolled you win 5 dollars and if a 1,2,3,4 or 5 is rolled I win 1 dollar, everyone knows I win 83% of the time but the game is still balanced.

What is not balanced in the Merc vs. Commando comparison are the side effects of having the offhand weapon. More gifting of retaliation/riposte to your enemies. Less ability to stack power. And less burst.

You can not argue that the multi-attack resolution of the Merc doesn't result in more averaging of damage and thus a lower chance of Surge being applied to the entire base of your nominal damage. That is basic math.

Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy View Post
Rail Shot does not use the offhand weapon. the only Merc abilities that use offhand damage are Rapid Shots, Power Shot, Unload, and Sweeping Blasters. everything else is mainhand, and functions as such.
Thanks for the correction. Although this now brings up another issue. If RailShot uses only the mainhand weapon, then does the Commando, by virtue of having a mainhand weapon with 20% greater base damage than the Merc have a tremendous advantage there?

clubdeeko's Avatar


clubdeeko
01.20.2013 , 10:59 AM | #26
Alpha troll.
Vis Fatalis
Valonia - ToFN

durvas's Avatar


durvas
01.20.2013 , 11:13 AM | #27
I don't know the specifics of merc/commando mh/oh, but for sniper/slinger, GS actually start to come out ahead when over 100% accuracy. Anyway, about trooper/BH, even if it is actually calculated the same, they actually have the same regen zones, and the cell cost is actually not more than heat, it's still much easier to "ride the line", ie get more dps without dropping over into the lower regen because you actually know where you are on a BH. On a trooper, you have to kind of guess what fraction of a cell the regen might actually be at and it is easy for you go into lower regen or simply lose gcds with your normal shot.

FREDDOSPWN's Avatar


FREDDOSPWN
01.20.2013 , 12:50 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Macroeconomics View Post
What is not balanced in the Merc vs. Commando comparison are the side effects of having the offhand weapon. More gifting of retaliation/riposte to your enemies. Less ability to stack power. And less burst.

You can not argue that the multi-attack resolution of the Merc doesn't result in more averaging of damage and thus a lower chance of Surge being applied to the entire base of your nominal damage. That is basic math.
The increased chance of giving retaliation/riposte is the off-set of having the higher damage potential. It is a disadvantage, but it will only happen an extra 3% (6.7% for inquisitors/consulars) of the time unless the target stacks defense.

Mercenaries do not have less ability to stack power, as the weapon calculations show, since they do the same average damage without any additional accuracy for the off-hand weapon.
The issue of surge not applying to attacks works both ways though. If a Commando doesn't critically hit, then they do not critically hit. If a Mercenary does not critically hit, they can get their off-hand to critically hit and salvage some damage.

On attacks that use both weapons:
A 40% critical hit chance (bit high but for ease of calculations) means a Commando will critically hit 40% of their attacks.

A 40% critical hit chance means a Mercenary will critically hit at least one of their attacks 56.08% of the time (1 - ((1 - 0.4) * (1 - 0.268))).

The whole issue in the heat against ammo debate, is that the regeneration is exactly the same. The Bounty Hunters get reduced heat costs in comparison and a higher high heat regeneration zone. Those two bonuses coupled with the same regeneration is the issue. The Bounty Hunter can recover from their rotation faster than the Trooper, resulting in less rapid shots and more flame bursts/unloads. This advantage also helps with vent heat (50 / 16 = 3.125) compared to recharge cells ( 6 / 2 = 3).

Each of the advantages are small, but all together they make a marked difference between the two classes. As a result of this, any Empire team with a Bounty Hunter will always out-perform a Republic team with a Trooper (assuming equally skilled teams as a result of a fixed matchmaking system).

Quote: Originally Posted by Macroeconomics View Post
Thanks for the correction. Although this now brings up another issue. If RailShot uses only the mainhand weapon, then does the Commando, by virtue of having a mainhand weapon with 20% greater base damage than the Merc have a tremendous advantage there?
Rail shot will do the same damage assuming the same gear and the same enemy.

Macroeconomics's Avatar


Macroeconomics
01.20.2013 , 11:45 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by FREDDOSPWN View Post
The increased chance of giving retaliation/riposte is the off-set of having the higher damage potential. It is a disadvantage, but it will only happen an extra 3% (6.7% for inquisitors/consulars) of the time unless the target stacks defense.
I think you need to check your math. Assuming a 100% Accuracy rating and a 5% Defense chance for the target, the Commando will trigger Riposte 30.16% of the time when using Rapid Shots (1-.95^7). With the same Accuracy and Defense chance the Merc will trigger Riposte 92.91% of the time (1-(.95^5)(.62^5)). The Merc is triggering Riposte/Retaliation at 3x the rate the Commando does. That is not insignificant.

Quote: Originally Posted by FREDDOSPWN View Post
The issue of surge not applying to attacks works both ways though. If a Commando doesn't critically hit, then they do not critically hit. If a Mercenary does not critically hit, they can get their off-hand to critically hit and salvage some damage.
Which is exactly why the Merc has less burst. The averaging of its damage gives the Merc a much lower chance of having the Surge rating applied to the entirety of its abilities' base damage.

DarkSaberMaster's Avatar


DarkSaberMaster
01.21.2013 , 12:05 AM | #30
2/10.
Daage: (Serenity Shadow) Daege: (AP Powertech)
Durenzo: (Scrapper Scoundrel) The Harbinger
Referral link for free stuff