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Nerf Mercenaries


cashogy's Avatar


cashogy
01.18.2013 , 11:27 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Zakmonster View Post
I think it was cleared up a long time ago that Troopers actually use the same system as the Bounty Hunter and it just has a different visual representation (or vice-versa, I can't remember which).

Beyond the fact that one bar goes up and one bar goes down, there is absolutely no difference in numbers or calculations that are going on behind the scenes.

No imbalance found anywhere, no fixes needed.
tracer missile, 16 heat. 16/100 = .16
grav round, 2 ammo. 2/12 = .17

idk, doesnt seem like something to grab the pitchforks over, but if the devs ever get bored and actually have nothing to do, might be worth looking into

Zakmonster's Avatar


Zakmonster
01.18.2013 , 11:32 PM | #12
Like I said, it's the exact same mechanic, with a different visual representation. So in actual fact, it would be:

Tracer Missile, 16 heat.
Grav Round, 16 heat (but looks like 2 ammo).


However, I am unable to find the thread which had this information, so I might be misremembering and the doomsayers are actually right.

In which case, nerf bounty hunters.

cashogy's Avatar


cashogy
01.18.2013 , 11:34 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Zakmonster View Post
Like I said, it's the exact same mechanic, with a different visual representation. So in actual fact, it would be:

Tracer Missile, 16 heat.
Grav Round, 16 heat (but looks like 2 ammo).


However, I am unable to find the thread which had this information, so I might be misremembering and the doomsayers are actually right.

In which case, nerf bounty hunters.
last i checked .17 =/= .16

like i said tho, the difference is infinitesimal in the grand scheme of the how the class is played. if bioware ever runs out of projects, they can work on this. otherwise, ive got a long list of stuff id prefer to see addressed before this

Zakmonster's Avatar


Zakmonster
01.18.2013 , 11:39 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy View Post
last i checked .17 =/= .16

like i said tho, the difference is infinitesimal in the grand scheme of the how the class is played. if bioware ever runs out of projects, they can work on this. otherwise, ive got a long list of stuff id prefer to see addressed before this
Dude. I'm trying to say that there is no mathematical difference. Troopers use heat as well, but it just looks different.

JackNader's Avatar


JackNader
01.18.2013 , 11:43 PM | #15
Heh.. you might want to re-read his post cashology.

The graphics and displayed numbers are rounded. The internal calculations are not rounded. An obvious example of this is found in the assassin or sorc tree when their force regen rate is 10.4. You will never ever see any decimal numbers when hovering over your actual force bar. The same is true for all talents on the sorc when specced into the 9% force cost reduction.

Zataos's Avatar


Zataos
01.19.2013 , 12:24 AM | #16
Well, I have both, my Trooper is at the mid lvls and I've had a Merc since launch and I can tell you that your full of ****, just overall the Commando "feels" better in almost every way and generally performs better in warzones.
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Macroeconomics's Avatar


Macroeconomics
01.19.2013 , 02:51 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Zataos View Post
Well, I have both, my Trooper is at the mid lvls and I've had a Merc since launch and I can tell you that your full of ****, just overall the Commando "feels" better in almost every way and generally performs better in warzones.
That's because the Commando is better. There are three (3) reasons for this, and they all revolve around the fact that the Commando has the advantage of having only a single weapon.

1) Since the Commando does not have a low accuracy offhand weapon, he has a much lower need for Accuracy and can stack Power instead.

2) Since the Commando does not have a low accuracy offhand weapon, he triggers Retaliation/Riposte from enemy melee dps much less frequently. And enemy melee dps are the bane of Commando/Merc.

3) Since the Merc has an offhand weapon his abilities are resolved using an attack system that chops the attack into many smaller pieces. The Merc needs to get a crit hit on ALL of these multiple attacks in order to get the true burst effect from Surge. For example if both the Merc and the Commando have a 50% critical hit chance on RailShot/HiB and a 75% Surge rating, the Merc has only a 25% chance (0.5^2) of doing 175% of his base damage with RS, while the Commando has a 50% chance of doing 175% of his base damage. Thus the Commando has more burst than the Merc.

All you need to remember about class balance in ToR is one golden rule: Merc is the WORST class in the game. Period.

Invictusthetaru's Avatar


Invictusthetaru
01.19.2013 , 02:52 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Macroeconomics View Post
That's because the Commando is better. There are three (3) reasons for this, and they all revolve around the fact that the Commando has the advantage of having only a single weapon.

1) Since the Commando does not have a low accuracy offhand weapon, he has a much lower need for Accuracy and can stack Power instead.

2) Since the Commando does not have a low accuracy offhand weapon, he triggers Retaliation/Riposte from enemy melee dps much less frequently. And enemy melee dps are the bane of Commando/Merc.

3) Since the Merc has an offhand weapon his abilities are resolved using an attack system that chops the attack into many smaller pieces. The Merc needs to get a crit hit on ALL of these multiple attacks in order to get the true burst effect from Surge. For example if both the Merc and the Commando have a 50% critical hit chance on RailShot/HiB and a 75% Surge rating, the Merc has only a 25% chance (0.5^2) of doing 175% of his base damage with RS, while the Commando has a 50% chance of doing 175% of his base damage. Thus the Commando has more burst than the Merc.

All you need to remember about class balance in ToR is one golden rule: Merc is the WORST class in the game. Period.
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Macroeconomics's Avatar


Macroeconomics
01.19.2013 , 03:07 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Invictusthetaru View Post
Welcome to Slinger / sniper.
The difference is that Gunslingers/Snipers have an ability to boost their Accuracy by 30%. An ability that is clearly there to benefit Gunslingers more than Snipers and give Gunslingers higher damage output than Snipers when that ability is active. Mercs have no such ability. MERC = WORST. Golden Rule. Never broken. EVER.

FREDDOSPWN's Avatar


FREDDOSPWN
01.19.2013 , 11:21 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Macroeconomics View Post
That's because the Commando is better. There are three (3) reasons for this, and they all revolve around the fact that the Commando has the advantage of having only a single weapon.

1) Since the Commando does not have a low accuracy offhand weapon, he has a much lower need for Accuracy and can stack Power instead.

2) Since the Commando does not have a low accuracy offhand weapon, he triggers Retaliation/Riposte from enemy melee dps much less frequently. And enemy melee dps are the bane of Commando/Merc.

3) Since the Merc has an offhand weapon his abilities are resolved using an attack system that chops the attack into many smaller pieces. The Merc needs to get a crit hit on ALL of these multiple attacks in order to get the true burst effect from Surge. For example if both the Merc and the Commando have a 50% critical hit chance on RailShot/HiB and a 75% Surge rating, the Merc has only a 25% chance (0.5^2) of doing 175% of his base damage with RS, while the Commando has a 50% chance of doing 175% of his base damage. Thus the Commando has more burst than the Merc.

All you need to remember about class balance in ToR is one golden rule: Merc is the WORST class in the game. Period.
Here are some simple calculations using the champion war hero eliminator weapons (I got the values off of torhead.com):

assault cannon = 367 - 681 (((367 + 681) / 2) = 524 average hit)
MH pistol = 306 - 567 (((306 + 567) / 2) = 436.5 average hit)
OH pistol = 306 - 567 (((306 + 567) / 2) = 436.5 average hit)

Compare 0% OH hit + MH pistol to assault cannon:
Max hit difference (681 - 567) = 114 (in favour of the cannon)
Average hit difference (524 - 436.5) = 87.5 (in favour of the cannon)
Min hit difference (367 - 306) = 61 (in favour of the cannon)

30% of OH max damage (567 * 0.3) = 170.1 (> 114)
average of hitting 67% (170.1 * 0.67) = 113.967 (~ 114)

30% of OH average damage (436.5 * 0.3) = 130.95 (> 87.5)
average of hitting 67% (130.95 * 0.67) = 87.7365 (~ 87.5)

30% of OH min damage (306 * 0.3) = 91.8 (> 61)
average of hitting 67% (91.8 * 0.67) = 61.506 (~ 61)

Compare 100% OH hit + MH to assault cannon:
MH + OH max damage (567 + 170.1) = 737.1 (> 681) (in favour of MH + OH)
MH + OH average damage (436.5 + 130.95) = 567.45 (> 524) (in favour of MH + OH)
MH + OH min damage (306 + 91.8) = 397.8 (> 367) (in favour of MH + OH)

Compare 67% OH hit + MH to assault cannon:
MH + OH max damage (567 + 113.967) = 680.967 (~ 681) (the same)
MH + OH average damage (436.5 + 87.7365) = 524.2365 (~ 524) (the same)
MH + OH min damage (306 + 61.506) = 367.506 (~367) (the same)

If the off-hand hits, a Mercenary does more damage. If the off-hand misses, the Commando does more damage. Therefore, the Mercenary will out damage the Commando in 67% of attacks that require both weapons to be used.

The Mercenary's damage is balanced around hitting the off-hand attacks less frequently. As a result, Mercenaries do not just have better resource management. They also have better burst.

Onto the main point of this post.
When Season One comes out, we should be matched in ranked warzones according to our team's rating. The system should match ratings that are close to each other. As a result, the teams should be of equal skill (or close to). Therefore, in any match-up, the Empire will have an advantage over the Republic.

I fail to see how a clear advantage to one faction is ignored in favour of complaining about issues that both factions can take advantage of. Yes, I agree with previous posters that it is a minor issue. However, with equally skilled teams (or close to) any minor advantage can make the difference.

I see that many people are trying to turn this into a Mercenary vs Commando thread. This is supposed to be a Trooper vs Bounty Hunter thread, focusing on how the Empire get an unfair advantage.