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Meet the Developers: Rob Hinkle

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Meet the Developers: Rob Hinkle
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T-Assassin's Avatar


T-Assassin
01.29.2013 , 11:49 AM | #71
Quote: Originally Posted by planet_J View Post
Actually PT Pyro is the mirror tree...Pyro on a merc is similar but not the same. Merc Pyro allows more distance attacks and does not get some the skills pt/vg gets. Also...a vanguard, as was pointed out....has to close the gap. They are a melee range dps. Furthermore, mercs/commandos are capacble of a lot of aoe, which means while their attacks may not hit as hard, they hit more adds, so the damage equals out.
you are insane? PT Pyro, which VG/Assasult is the Republic equivilent. i.e. the same damn tree.

CLOSE THE GAP????!!!! WHAT????

grapple, casting while moving, 10m range on IP(FB)/CGC/HiB(RS), and 30m on "auto attack".

VG/PT is a kiting machine!!! ideal kiting range is 7-9m...the sweet spot for VG/PT...how bout that merc? when they get jumped to? how concerned are you about closing the gap now?? i'd be more concerned with maintaining the gap of 7-9m...which is why i'm pretty awesome at PvP...

PvE?? closing the gap, really??, again. fights are scripted, it's a dance...learn the moves and closing the gap is moot.

starting the fight, closing the gap you say? perfect time to "auto attack", proc a CGC, and HiB/RS to begin your rotation. say CGC doesn't proc...30m 'AA", close to 10m, IP/FB / HiB/RS, begin your rotation...you lose MAYBE one CD...ONE!

if your argument is closing the gap, you have no idea how to play a mobile class.

*EDIT* i can't even believe "closing the gap" was mentioned!!!
"Ib'tuur jatne tuur ash'ad kyr'amur."
"Today is a good day for someone else to die." -

planet_J's Avatar


planet_J
01.29.2013 , 11:53 AM | #72
Quote: Originally Posted by LuciferinDNA View Post
Ok, in a short way... "insert sandbox mmo rant"
Look, it's not a sandbox...it will never be...so if you want to play a sandbox mmo...go play one. Stop complaining about irreversible design decisions..
If they ask for SWTOR 2 feedback great...if not...all of your text wall means nothing productive.
Republic Paragons/Paragons of the Empire:
http://republicparagons.guildlaunch.com
To contact in game find Hagimond or Zutharan Republic side for Imperial Side contact Gyrok or Peregrin-Noir

T-Assassin's Avatar


T-Assassin
01.29.2013 , 11:56 AM | #73
Quote: Originally Posted by planet_J View Post
Look, it's not a sandbox...it will never be...so if you want to play a sandbox mmo...go play one. Stop complaining about irreversible design decisions..
If they ask for SWTOR 2 feedback great...if not...all of your text wall means nothing productive.
^^^ furthest thing from sandbox.

this is the most linear MMO i have ever played. it's simplicity isn't for everyone, but is intuitive for everyone. i understand why they did it.

doesn't excuse the gross imbalance between classes, lack of content in both PvE and PvP, and bugs. in my opinion, it makes it much worse.
"Ib'tuur jatne tuur ash'ad kyr'amur."
"Today is a good day for someone else to die." -

planet_J's Avatar


planet_J
01.29.2013 , 11:57 AM | #74
Quote: Originally Posted by T-Assassin View Post
you are insane? PT Pyro, which VG/Assasult is the Republic equivilent. i.e. the same damn tree.

CLOSE THE GAP????!!!! WHAT????

grapple, casting while moving, 10m range on IP(FB)/CGC/HiB(RS), and 30m on "auto attack".

VG/PT is a kiting machine!!! ideal kiting range is 7-9m...the sweet spot for VG/PT...how bout that merc? when they get jumped to? how concerned are you about closing the gap now?? i'd be more concerned with maintaining the gap of 7-9m...which is why i'm pretty awesome at PvP...

PvE?? closing the gap, really??, again. fights are scripted, it's a dance...learn the moves and closing the gap is moot.

starting the fight, closing the gap you say? perfect time to "auto attack", proc a CGC, and HiB/RS to begin your rotation. say CGC doesn't proc...30m 'AA", close to 10m, IP/FB / HiB/RS, begin your rotation...you lose MAYBE one CD...ONE!

if your argument is closing the gap, you have no idea how to play a mobile class.

*EDIT* i can't even believe "closing the gap" was mentioned!!!
Clearly you've never played Pyro...any attack worth using REQUIRES 10m or less range...yes it's mobile...but you are still in melee range. TD was nerfed to 10m range...remember?

Ever seen a Pyro try to kill a REAL ranged class...? Watch one take a sniper/GS...they won't try twice because it's moot...they're dead before the gap is closed.

Mercs can stay at 30m range and volley back...pyros can't even dream of that.

Pyro is VERY kitable for engineering snipers too btw...
Republic Paragons/Paragons of the Empire:
http://republicparagons.guildlaunch.com
To contact in game find Hagimond or Zutharan Republic side for Imperial Side contact Gyrok or Peregrin-Noir

T-Assassin's Avatar


T-Assassin
01.29.2013 , 12:33 PM | #75
Quote: Originally Posted by planet_J View Post
Clearly you've never played Pyro...any attack worth using REQUIRES 10m or less range...yes it's mobile...but you are still in melee range. TD was nerfed to 10m range...remember?

Ever seen a Pyro try to kill a REAL ranged class...? Watch one take a sniper/GS...they won't try twice because it's moot...they're dead before the gap is closed.

Mercs can stay at 30m range and volley back...pyros can't even dream of that.

Pyro is VERY kitable for engineering snipers too btw...
clearly. i do however have a VG/Assault...and last time i checked i held 5 top boss parses on torparse. (and quite a few more top VG/PT parses)

clearly.

and PT/VG has a counter?? oh no!!

so, your saying that because PT can't grapple a sniper in cover or cleanse an Engy's dots, that Mercs > PT??

you, CLEARLY, are misinformed, underinformed, or just plain ignorant on game mechanincs.

yes, snipers are difficult to kill when in the open...but, use LOS and close the gap...it's over quickly. same with lethality. they get you in the open, you're in trouble.

ever stun one, grapple em (with your back to a wall, so they can't KB you?) i have...works quite well.

having a class that can negate my strengths...i got no problem with that. i have to use strategy and teamwork...blasphemy!

*Editted* cuz i wanted to. don't get caught being stupid (in the open, solo, no LOS, not paying attention to your surroundings, etc.) and you will die a lot less.
"Ib'tuur jatne tuur ash'ad kyr'amur."
"Today is a good day for someone else to die." -

planet_J's Avatar


planet_J
01.29.2013 , 01:08 PM | #76
Now you're misconstruing me...I never said merc>Pyro...I said pyros have their own issues and do more dps because they have to once they get in close. Mercs have the luxury of range.

PvE is not pvp., boss parses are not pvp runs. Mercs have no real reason to complain in pve...for crying out loud....they even get more energy regen and less energy cost per attack than either trooper class! It has been that way since launch. Merc pvp needs some love...merc pve is not broken.
Republic Paragons/Paragons of the Empire:
http://republicparagons.guildlaunch.com
To contact in game find Hagimond or Zutharan Republic side for Imperial Side contact Gyrok or Peregrin-Noir

T-Assassin's Avatar


T-Assassin
01.29.2013 , 01:45 PM | #77
Quote: Originally Posted by planet_J View Post
Now you're misconstruing me...I never said merc>Pyro...I said pyros have their own issues and do more dps because they have to once they get in close. Mercs have the luxury of range.

PvE is not pvp., boss parses are not pvp runs. Mercs have no real reason to complain in pve...for crying out loud....they even get more energy regen and less energy cost per attack than either trooper class! It has been that way since launch. Merc pvp needs some love...merc pve is not broken.
merc's PvE DPS is roughly 10% less than VG/PT in PvE.

go have a look at torparse. how many Mercs you see in the top 50, compared to VG/PT. i have, i wrote a whole other post on it.

Merc's DPS is NOT fine. and your range comment is laughable to me.

again, i have proven, through testing and parsing, Merc's DPS is quite hindered in both areas. VG/PT can maintain >150-200 DPS in equal gear on a training dummy!!! put that in a OPs scenario, where a majority of fights involve mobility, you can drop that down another 10% at least!

and again, the range comment. i can sit at 9.99m(out of AOE range for most fights) and still produce ~1900 DPS, where Merc in equal gear is producing significantly less. evidence? i've provided it, so have many others over at torparse.

all this is due to the instant casting ability of VG/PT vs. the statue casting of Merc, both pyro and Arse. even tho arsenal can produce more DPS than pyro in an ideal scenario.

you can argue opinion and hearsay all day...numbers never lie.

*EDIT* to further negate your closing the gap nonsense, here's a MP parse. i'm sure you're familiar with the mechanics of the fight, snared most of the time, LOS the mob, etc...kinda just like PvP!! (and if you say there are no similarities as to the strategy and playstyle, you're hopeless. no they are not the same, but the comparison is undeniable.

point is: DPS of VG/PT in nearly every scenario > Merc...so, DPS is NOT fine.

http://www.torparse.com/statistics/M...nd+Moff+Kilran
"Ib'tuur jatne tuur ash'ad kyr'amur."
"Today is a good day for someone else to die." -

planet_J's Avatar


planet_J
01.29.2013 , 02:05 PM | #78
Really...? Numbers don't lie? If you are so great to prove all this why are there pyros in my guild that parse 2k in raids? Then arsenal mercs that put up 1800 like clockwork? Sometimes, you have to look in the mirror too. Ever considered discrepancy in your analysis could be related to pebkac? Not insulting you...but true 100% accurate scientific results exclude ALL variables.

Furthermore, how well do you know your assault vanguard rotation versus your merc rotation? What gear are you in? Is it min/maxed for best use of stat allocation? You realize arsenal mercs have slightly different stat goals than assault vanguards too right?

It must be the class though, because none of your responses have shown your exclusions of human variables. Have you run Sims to get a baseline for comparison?

I am an engineer...these things immediately come to mind as variables that need to be addressed.
Republic Paragons/Paragons of the Empire:
http://republicparagons.guildlaunch.com
To contact in game find Hagimond or Zutharan Republic side for Imperial Side contact Gyrok or Peregrin-Noir

T-Assassin's Avatar


T-Assassin
01.29.2013 , 04:16 PM | #79
Quote: Originally Posted by planet_J View Post
Really...? Numbers don't lie? If you are so great to prove all this why are there pyros in my guild that parse 2k in raids? Then arsenal mercs that put up 1800 like clockwork? Sometimes, you have to look in the mirror too. Ever considered discrepancy in your analysis could be related to pebkac? Not insulting you...but true 100% accurate scientific results exclude ALL variables.

2000 vs. 1800. i'm sure being an engineer you can do the math in DPS differential.

Furthermore, how well do you know your assault vanguard rotation versus your merc rotation? What gear are you in? Is it min/maxed for best use of stat allocation? You realize arsenal mercs have slightly different stat goals than assault vanguards too right?

i use a slightly different spec than normal. something i think fits my playstyle a bit more, which has been covered extensively in the forums...oh!! and gear, nope...not min/maxed yet still have MANY top 50 parses on torparse. a few #1's...haven't really played in a month, so a few of my records have been bested...records, in NON min/max'd gear...as a matter of fact, gear i inherited from my Merc!!! who never cracked top 50 on torparse...and i did it in 3 weeks of playing a VG/assasult.

It must be the class though, because none of your responses have shown your exclusions of human variables. Have you run Sims to get a baseline for comparison?

sims...sure have...EXACT same gear, multiple specs. VG/assault vs. Merc/pyro. hence the ~>150-200 DPS statement. same rotations, everything...

I am an engineer...these things immediately come to mind as variables that need to be addressed.

mr. engineer, seriously, go have a look at torparse. go thru all OP/FP's and HM's...the DPS differential is slapping you in the face...your just to "idk what you call it" to admit it.
any additional information available on request.

next question.

*EDIT* i've brought EVIDENCE before you to prove my point...not opinion and nonsense. math, parses, something an engineer should love!! what's the difference in % between 2000 and 1800?

you work for BW?
"Ib'tuur jatne tuur ash'ad kyr'amur."
"Today is a good day for someone else to die." -

planet_J's Avatar


planet_J
01.29.2013 , 08:53 PM | #80
No I don't work for BW...apparently they don't come out much it seems.

As for 200 dps...so what...if you can't pickup what I have explained then you will never be happy.

Frankly...watchman sentinels parse over 2200 on the top end...you want to put up those numbers? I bet you're going to ask why melee dps does more damage again...but you don't seem to be much for theorycrafting. So, let me help you out...

As range increases...damage decreases...as roles change...dps changes. Should juggernaut tanks do less dps by 300 than shadow tanks? Should mercs do sniper damage? Should marauders do more damage than anyone?

Bottom line: merc dps is not worse off than say...operatives or sages...and if ANYTHING a survivability buff would be useful....but there is no current content where they are insufficient to dps when appropriately geared!

Which is likely why BW hasn't addressed your well documented complaints.

PVP is different...and I will give you that...but if anything the only argument you succeed at is showing how big a nerf pt and vg need.
Republic Paragons/Paragons of the Empire:
http://republicparagons.guildlaunch.com
To contact in game find Hagimond or Zutharan Republic side for Imperial Side contact Gyrok or Peregrin-Noir