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Full Tank Tree Jugg > Hybrid Jugg

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Full Tank Tree Jugg > Hybrid Jugg

kanare's Avatar


kanare
01.20.2013 , 07:10 AM | #21
when they changed 4% + amour to 4% reduction of all damage hybrid spec became over powered
you do more tps in hybrid in bis due to strth upgrade + take around 3% less damage in total witch is quite huge espeshaly with a fully mitagated gard tank , our mitigation + cd's is insane , and in fights espeshaly long fights u can get your self so far ahead on threat , that u are able to use focus defence (agro drop every time you get hit , witch gives u an extra 15 % ( however if u put a taunt up 4 seconds in to it it mitgates the last 6 seconds of that cd , or if your on a fight like tanks , where you will very rarly have to taunt , u can use both taunts and mitgate the hole , reduce threat timmer , and 15% total damage reduction just makes u sooooooooo over powered !!! this can be used on many fights trust me i have used it with no adverse affects you just have to get used to when to use it not to lose agro , if you are woried about threat do not use , + do not use as start i also recomending all jug and gard tanks to always be paired with a shadow !!!! makes it easyer they do the tps u do mitigation.

WhiteKing's Avatar


WhiteKing
01.20.2013 , 07:57 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
The only thing, from a mitigation standpoint, that Full defense has over the hybrid is 4% shield chance.
Full Defense can get Inner Peace that provides 4% internal/elemental resistance.
Edit: and apparently I didn't see the "has over the hybrid" part...in which case full defense has nothing there, since 4% shield is inferior to 4% hard DR due to absorb and shield bypassing K/E attacks.

Quote: Originally Posted by wadecounty View Post
(1.3 threat modifier placed on Sweep compared to 1.5 on Guardian Slash, and it does considerably more damage than Hilt Strike)
Only on paper. In practice, Guardian Slash only gets x1.3 for a total of x2.6 with Soresu and Sweep and Cyclonic Slash get x1.15 for a total of x2.3 with stance bonus.

kanare's Avatar


kanare
01.20.2013 , 10:25 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by WhiteKing View Post
Full Defense can get Inner Peace that provides 4% internal/elemental resistance.

Only on paper. In practice, Guardian Slash only gets x1.3 for a total of x2.6 with Soresu and Sweep and Cyclonic Slash get x1.15 for a total of x2.3 with stance bonus.
4% internal and 4% sheild do not = 4% total damage reduction it means you get

4% off the internal damage that u would spec in 2 with the 4% +
4% sheild does not = 4% damage mitigation it gives you

4% all damage resitance = all damage = internal and external damage !!!!!!!
witch leads on for me to give a quck demo on what this means

ok say you have deminstartion first full defence spec benfits (does not quite work like this but its laymens terms demo

ok you get hit 100 times each hit = 1000 damage , and you have 50% sheild ashumeing you 40% absorb , and 30% defence 16 man gear+ the 4% bonus meaning
we will take it litraly (this is not true) , but is just an exapination

you get hit 54 times , mitgate 40% on each of them taking reduced damage
takeing defence out of equation , and no blade barrior ever or amour, i will go in to them latter !!! leaveing

leves 54000 damage left minus the 40% mitigatio so 54000 - 21600 = 32,000

and 46 hits with no mitigation .........ok that is 46000 damage unmitigated damage + 32,000 the mitigated damage = 78400 damage hope you have all followed this ....

now lets look at 4% total damage reduction instead ....

thats down to 50% sheild and 40% absorb

ok , that means 50% get mitigation , so lets do that that = 20,000 mitigation , leaveing 30,000 damage on you but were not done , you then still need to take the 4% damage of that !!!! thats another 1,200 damage of this , takeing total damage mitagated to so you mitigate 28,800 (does not quite work like this damage is actully mitgated erler so more damage is taken off just this easyest way to exaplain it to people who dont understand)

then lets look at the other 50,000 damage witch is also mittigated by the 4% 50,000 witch = 2000 that means 48,000 damage so it is 48,000 + 28,8000= 76,800

alone using full defence spec = 78400 damage
wile dual spec = = 76,800 damage <-- this is actully lower , you are ment to take the damage off as it hits so the it would actully all be with a lower numver so for every 100 damage you would only get 96 , damage not includeing any mittigation , witch is = to more mitigation ,would reduce total damage down b 4% witch means it would be 4000 damage mitigated not 3,2000 witch would mean the real damage you would take would 76,000 but i realy cant be arsted to go though why that is (its how bioware actully do the mitgation , but people will get confused , where do u get those numbers , from so i just showed 4% off all damage , splitting the damage when im not wrighting an essey for uni i wil ldo the full maths trust me hybride makes u some think like 2-3% less damage then defence spec , + it does as much tps if not slightly more and is great for fights like kethis and i did not even mention the 15% extra damage you get rid of if you know how to manage your threat , and tanking ...... any questions ???

kanare's Avatar


kanare
01.20.2013 , 10:31 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by vertigo_ View Post
Not always, I run 17/23/1 with the powertech set bonus on my jugg. no sonic barrier at all. works great

edit: I will take sonic barrier if im pugging with crappy healers. I usually try to increase dps / threat.
plz say you are pvp'er if you are pve'r you are losing so much damage reduction from blade barrior !!!!! i have played both specs trust me the description above is rough calculations not examplain all mitgations its actully alot more complicated then above but to be honest i dont have time atm to explain it all i just wanted to put it in the most basic form so people understand !!!!

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Kitru
01.20.2013 , 10:49 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by WhiteKing View Post
Full Defense can get Inner Peace that provides 4% internal/elemental resistance.
The hybrid gets Commanding Awe, which provides 4% DR to both K/E and I/E. Both specs get 4% additional I/E DR. The only difference in their survivability is that the hybrid gets 4% higher K/E DR and 9 sec Blade Storm whereas full Defense gets 4% higher Shield Chance.
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Quote: Originally Posted by Fende View Post
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kanare's Avatar


kanare
01.20.2013 , 11:29 AM | #26
its full 4% damage resitance , to every type of damage , while the 1 in defence tree gets 4% sheild and 4% ele + internal ........ only ......

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kanare
01.20.2013 , 11:30 AM | #27
4% damage goes byby = u dont take it , witch is total , damage goes down , of every tipe !!!!

Darth_Dreselus's Avatar


Darth_Dreselus
01.20.2013 , 03:18 PM | #28
Currently the damage for the two finals bosses are (I believe correct me if I am wrong) HM TFB phases 2-3 and NiM EC Kephess. The following is based on 8 man versions.

HM TFB phases 2 and 3

A number of its damage can be vastly reduced by correct position, tanking on platforms 10 and 14 results in the tanks taking M/R kinetic damage. As this damage can be shielded/defended Immortal/Defence may come out ahead but it is still likely that Hybrid will, either way it is nowhere near borderline healing and both specs will do fine.

On second tentacle phase it is difficult to tank at platforms 10 and 14 as DPS traverse those to hunt anomalies. Tanking on platforms 11 and 13 results in F/T kinetic damage. Here is what that looks like on a 61 Vanguard with no cds

03:45:42.342 544s Devastating Slam 6842 kinetic No The Terror From Beyond
03:45:45.352 547s Devastating Slam 6640 kinetic No The Terror From Beyond
03:45:48.405 550s Devastating Slam 6640 kinetic No The Terror From Beyond
03:45:51.463 553s Devastating Slam 6640 kinetic No The Terror From Beyond
03:45:54.441 556s Devastating Slam 6640 kinetic No The Terror From Beyond
03:45:57.540 559s Devastating Slam 6640 kinetic No The Terror From Beyond
03:46:00.554 562s Devastating Slam 6842 kinetic No The Terror From Beyond
03:46:03.554 565s Devastating Slam 6640 kinetic No The Terror From Beyond

Taking an artificial average that is 6700 F/T kinetic damage per a GCDs (3s) or 2233 DPS, which requires minimum of 1116 HPS from each healer (HPSPH). While this is a breeze there is also damage from anomalies to the DPS but it is not huge. While the Hybrid clearly takes less damage both specs can be healed through it easily. 61 healers should easily pull 1600 sustained HPS. Even if we take a value of 1400 to account for the raid damage that is still 2800 DPS that can be healed through or 8400 per hit on platforms 11 and 13 (I am not sure how much damage Shadows take though).

The scream will hit for 14000 elemental and the tanks can also take one tick of pool for 3000 elemental damage, both specs are the same in this respect. From the logs I have seen it also seems that both of these values are always the same, correct me if I am wrong. As the tank then takes no damage this can be quickly healed up by burst, or lowered by Force Amrour if possible. There is also 10s between the last hit and the scream, even with taking the spit this is 17000 damage in 10s = 1700 DPS = 850 HPSPH, a negligible amount.

As for phase 3 on platforms 9-16 here is the same Vanguard (using cds this time):

9:23.531 765s Monsterous Swipe 1938 kinetic No The Terror From Beyond
03:49:23.531 765s Monsterous Swipe 573 kinetic No The Terror From Beyond
03:49:23.531 765s Monsterous Swipe 1938 kinetic No The Terror From Beyond
03:49:23.531 765s Monsterous Swipe 0 No The Terror From Beyond
03:49:23.532 765s Monsterous Swipe 1938 kinetic No The Terror From Beyond
03:49:25.153 767s Monsterous Swipe 0 No The Terror From Beyond
03:49:25.153 767s Monsterous Swipe 573 kinetic No The Terror From Beyond
03:49:25.153 767s Monsterous Swipe 1938 kinetic No The Terror From Beyond
03:49:25.153 767s Monsterous Swipe 573 kinetic No The Terror From Beyond
03:49:25.154 767s Monsterous Swipe 0 No The Terror From Beyond

This results in 1 attack made of 5 individual hits every GCD (1.5s) with M/R kinetic damage, again a question of 4% shd vs 4% DR, Hybrid likely wins but RNG. Hard to put in numbers of healing needed as tanks will be using cds and healers are bursting.

Threat is also only a marginal issue in the very first part of the fight and it is possible to throw out 6-8 taunts in total before first spit/scream, the only threat generated on the Terror is by the healers as well. Neither spec has a noticeable edge here.

NiM EC Kephess (cred to Gorthog of the Harbinger)
Numbers are based on a 53.11% DR Hybrid Jugg this time with no cds up

In the Pre 60% phase there are two sources of damage, both on the tanks

'DoT tank'

22:10:13.224 432s Empowered Slash 16583 internal No Warlord Kephess
22:10:15.260 434s Savage Wounding 6633 internal No Warlord Kephess
22:10:18.301 437s Savage Wounding 6633 internal No Warlord Kephess
22:10:21.319 440s Savage Wounding 6633 internal No Warlord Kephess
22:10:24.319 443s Savage Wounding 6633 internal No Warlord Kephess
22:10:27.295 446s Savage Wounding 6633 internal No Warlord Kephess
22:10:30.332 449s Savage Wounding 6633 internal No Warlord Kephess

3,317 F/T internal DPS. Both specs are exactly the same, with the exception of the leap 20% DR, but as Kephess pulls the tank in it is questionable whether the tank will have time to leap. This on its own requires each healer to pull 1658.5 HPS, which is already strenuous.

On top of that you have the following:

'Active Tank'
21:40:02.454 427s Arcing Slash 11487 kinetic No Warlord Kephess
21:40:04.023 429s Melee Attack 0 No Warlord Kephess
21:40:05.574 430s Melee Attack 7599 kinetic No Warlord Kephess
21:40:07.093 432s Melee Attack 3958 kinetic No Warlord Kephess
and repeat

13,484 pre mitigation DPS (number achieved by looking at the non mitigated attacks and taking off DR). Here it is again a question of 4% def vs 4% DR with the DR likely winning overall, but RNG is an issue.

Essentially if the tanks aren't clever with their cds (mainly the DoT tank), there are only Scoundrel healers with no way of lowering damage AND the active tank is unlucky with mitigation, both specs will likely die but hybrid can have a slight edge here.

In the post 60% phase only the active tank takes damage

21:42:07.592 552s Melee Attack 2742 kinetic No Warlord Kephess
21:42:07.593 552s Melee Attack 2742 kinetic No Warlord Kephess
21:42:07.593 552s Melee Attack 1428 kinetic No Warlord Kephess
21:42:07.593 552s Melee Attack 2742 kinetic No Warlord Kephess
21:42:07.593 552s Melee Attack 1428 kinetic No Warlord Kephess
21:42:09.104 554s Melee Attack 2742 kinetic No Warlord Kephess
21:42:09.104 554s Melee Attack 0 No Warlord Kephess
21:42:09.104 554s Melee Attack 2742 kinetic No Warlord Kephess
21:42:09.105 554s Melee Attack 2742 kinetic No Warlord Kephess
21:42:09.105 554s Melee Attack 0 No Warlord Kephess

This results in 1 attack made of 5 individual hits every GCD (1.5s) with M/R kinetic damage, again a question of 4% shd vs 4% DR, Hybrid likely wins but RNG. While tanks can use cds, it is harder than HM TFB and healers are unlikely to be able to burst due to the length of the phase. Working backwards from the 2,742 hit, we see that the pre-mitigation hit is 2742/(1-.5311) = 5848. Five of those attacks over 1.5 seconds works out to 29,238 total damage and 19,492 DPS and there is also a cca 5k on the knock-back before switch.

Now lets see how our two specs can deal with cca 19500 pre-mitigation DPS.
Lets say a base DR is 49% (based on the fact that the hybrid in the parse has 53%) and both tanks have 38% def (30% base with 3% from Retaliation and 5% as a result of Smash accuracy debuff) and 50/50 shield absorb.

Immortal/Defence
49% kinetic DR
38% def
54% shield
50% absorb

38% of the damage is defended = 12090 DPS remainder, 54% of the remainder (6528) is shielded and reduced by 50% = 8826 DPS remainder, which is then reduced by 49% to give us the value of 4501 DPS taken by Defence/Immortal before any absorption by Blade/Sonic Barrier

Hybrid
53% kinetic DR
38% def
50% shield
50% abs

38% of the damage is defended = 12090 DPS remainder, 50% of the remainder (6045) is shielded and reduced by 50% = 9067 DPS which is then reduced by 53% to give us the value of 4261 DPS taken by Hybrid before any absorption by Blade/Sonic Barrier

The actual numbers will be even lower based on the following Dev Comment bosses have 90% acc on base M/R attacks and 100% on special attacks. http://www.swtor.com/community/showt...=522210&page=2. While I do not know which is which both specs will be affected the same. Then again it is called melee attack which should be basic. Taking that into account (i.e 48% def) the numbers are 3660 for Hybrid and 3776 for Immortal/Defence.

Before I actually make a conclusion could someone who is actually good at maths check those numbers?
No One Important Died Tavernus - Sorc / Taverna - Mara / Pintus - Op / Gintonica - PT
The Red Eclipse. Sweet Dreams to all my Harbinger children.

NotRonin's Avatar


NotRonin
01.20.2013 , 03:41 PM | #29
For TFB HM 2nd phase, I believe you're tanking at the wrong spot. If you tank at the platform between where the two tentacle spawns, the attack from the boss can be mitigated. (Platform 10 and 14 on Dulfy's chart) You can drop the acid on the lower platform after taking 7 hits.

Darth_Dreselus's Avatar


Darth_Dreselus
01.20.2013 , 03:48 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by NotRonin View Post
For TFB HM 2nd phase, I believe you're tanking at the wrong spot. If you tank at the platform between where the two tentacle spawns, the attack from the boss can be mitigated. (Platform 10 and 14 on Dulfy's chart) You can drop the acid on the lower platform after taking 7 hits.
That is exactly what I said... the extra damage was an example of what happens on set 2, when 14 is used by traversing DPS (it can still be used for tanking but the DPS may get hit as well, which is generally acceptable if they use a CD, time it right or the healers just know about it)

By using the higher damage I was pointing out that the healing needed is nowhere near borderline even in a bad tanking position and thus either spec will clear it fine.
No One Important Died Tavernus - Sorc / Taverna - Mara / Pintus - Op / Gintonica - PT
The Red Eclipse. Sweet Dreams to all my Harbinger children.