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Tanking on SWTOR v. Tanking on WoW, how to explain it to DPS


AlixMV

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Background:

This is my first MMO. I've been playing for over a year now, love it, have multiple tanks, but I am just now starting to get serious about doing endgame content (thank you HK-51). I've learned a lot about class roles from friends of mine who are experienced MMOers and one who has been doing endgame (HM FPs and Ops) on SWTOR for over a year now. I've personally done a few HM FPs (including one as a tank PT), tanked some Level 50 FPs and Heroic-4s and have only heard one person (a DPS who was jumping into the fight before me and then stealing my aggro) complain. Gotten a few compliments, so I don't think I'm doing too terribly.

 

I'm about to start doing regular endgame sessions.

 

I've been soaking up knowledge like crazy on stats, how to play tanks and such (*), but a lot of what I know is seat of my pants--I can't break it down in terms of verbalizing it in game mechanics. I also call things by the way they're used in SWTOR. And due to my lack of familiarity of other MMOs, I can't translate what I do know into terms someone more familiar with WoW would grok.

 

(*) - I also play DPS and healers and have played them in FPs and endgame content, so I have a pretty good grasp on their roles as well.

 

My dilemma:

One of the people I'm about to play regular endgame content with has played extensively on WoW but hasn't, as far as I know, done many (if any) FPs and zero endgame content on SWTOR. I leveled with her from about 15-50 with a DPS character, but now I'm playing one of my tanks. She's a DPS. She's very used to playing DPS with her SO tanking on WoW.

 

The way I learned DPS should play on SWTOR was validated/confirmed by this comment I found in the forum trying to find out if this question had been asked yet:

 

your best bet (as a tank) is to work your way *down* through the enemy ranks (champ>elite>strong>standard), getting aggro on anything while making sure that your DPS starts chewing through their way *up* through the enemy ranks (standard>strong>elite>champ). DPS that decide to go outside of the proper kill order can make your life *very* annoying, which is why idiot DPS are the no. 1 cause of tank aggravation.

 

The way she learned it on WoW would be 'going outside the proper kill order'--attacking whatever the tank is attacking. And, yeah, is aggravating me already. We've already butt heads over it (nicely)--she thinks the method described in that quote is 'my' peculiar 'way', rather than what I've picked up as "standard" to SWTOR. I'm wanting the ability to correct her in the future, if need be, in terms she'll be able to understand given her WoW background.

 

What I need is help coming up with the (WoW) language to explain why the attack order above is how it works best in SWTOR--and especially why it is DPS need to start at the bottom and work their way up the order, and not by attacking what the tank attacks. If this is different from WoW, then why is it different? What mechanics/stat-based reasons make this the best way? My endgame experienced friend offered one reason--if the DPS aren't attacking the trash, the healer is going to get the aggro--but wouldn't that be the case in WoW?

 

I suspect there is mechanics/stat-based reasons for why there's a difference, but having someone lay it out (basically playing translator for me :) ) would be incredibly helpful. I don't need detailed numbers or anything, high level will suffice, but if numbers would help demonstrate it better, don't let me stop you. (I may just have to ask questions if I don't grasp it myself.)

 

Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobis, you're my only hope. :) TIA for any assistance you can provide!

Edited by AlixMV
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The basic reason is because SWTOR and WoW use vastly different enemy group compositions.

 

For 99% of group content, WoW throws out lots and lots of identically ranked enemies: they all deal roughly the same amount of damage and require roughly the same amount of time to kill. As such, since everything deals the same amount of damage and takes the same amount of time to kill, you just need to have a defined kill order so the the DPS doesn't yank threat off of the tank and stuff dies as quickly as possible to decrease incoming damage as quickly and efficiently as possible.

 

TOR is *drastically* different. Rather than just throwing out groups of elites, you can find the full spread of enemy ranks in content: weaks, standards, strongs, elites, *and* champions are all present in trash groups. In addition, the damage capability of the relative ranks is not the same progression as the time-to-kill: damage increases by roughly 25-50% per rank whereas time-to-kill increases by roughly 100% with each rank. As such, the most efficient way to reduce incoming damage is to kill the lowest ranked enemies first: a standard takes half the time to kill compared to a strong but deals 75% of the damage. In addition, trash packs in TOR are *substantially* larger than trash packs on WoW: you can expect to see 5-7 enemies in a *small* trash pack in TOR (2-3 strongs, 2-3 standards, 1-2 elites) and upwards of 10-12 in a large trash pack; WoW generally throws out 2-3 elites at a time with large packs cresting 7 *at most*. Combine this with the fact that WoW trash trends to prefer to congregate in melee whereas trash in TOR almost always has at least a few ranged enemies that will never move from their spot and will just stand where they are, spread out, and happily shoot you all day long. WoW's trash makes it *really* easy to keep aggro on a group by having the NPCs themselves do the work of sticking together; TOR trash generally prefers to stay spread out so you can't just keep aggro on everything by using tangential AoE. Furthermore, WoW very rarely hits the tank with CCs or knockbacks; if you've tanked in TOR for any appreciable period of time, you learn that you're gonna get tossed around and stunned *all* the time in trash.

 

In plainer text, it's because WoW doesn't use varied ranks in group content, doesn't use loads of enemies that exclusively use ranged attacks, and doesn't use the same degree of control effects on the tank.

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I would ask your mate, which companion she uses when she solo/questing (it doesn't really matter but just to start the conversation).

 

Whats her kill order when she solo/questing?

 

Get her to solo a challenging H4, pull a pack with 2 golds, 2 silvers and 4 normals. Whats her kill order?

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Just copy kitrus post and send it to em, in like 20 separate tells.

 

Or link to this thread.

 

Pretty well explains it.

 

 

 

I tanked, healed, and dps'd in both games, and it explains pretty much exactly.

 

When I DPS in tor, I like to see like how few gcds I can kill the trash with, that sorta thing. Helps to remember to not get gold fever.

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The basic reason is because SWTOR and WoW use vastly different enemy group compositions.

 

[...] In plainer text, it's because WoW doesn't use varied ranks in group content, doesn't use loads of enemies that exclusively use ranged attacks, and doesn't use the same degree of control effects on the tank.

 

I had to prevent myself from replying immediately yesterday because I probably would've come off as a raving fangirl. As it is, thank you SO much for the explanation. It was detailed enough that I feel comfortable explaining it, but clear enough that I can easily sound bite it.

 

Also, that it was so quick!

 

I would ask your mate, which companion she uses when she solo/questing (it doesn't really matter but just to start the conversation).

 

Whats her kill order when she solo/questing?

 

Get her to solo a challenging H4, pull a pack with 2 golds, 2 silvers and 4 normals. Whats her kill order?

 

I played with her in a trio for almost a year and talked your comment over with a mutual friend who played with the mate in question for the same amount of time, and the third-hand conclusion is 'kill order? What kill order?'

 

I don't think she's put that much thought into it while leveling and, as mentioned initially, I'm pretty sure she hasn't done many (if any) ancillary stuff like Heroics or FPs.

 

I might put the question to her if it comes up again, though, because I'm wondering if part of the issue/problem is that she simply hasn't thought about it at all, and maybe asking the question will make her do so.

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  • 2 weeks later...

As DPS in games such as EQ2, CoX (though a DPS toon could tank, man I do miss the combat in that game), and how I'll have my companions in TOR act was by working from the bottom up. Unless if you're AE heavy and confident you can burn everything down - such was the case of adds from the smuggler in BoI that used to be problematic - my philosophy was always that leading to creating an opening for support/healers.

 

Here, I've tanked primarily and that was the way I preferred it. In most skilled groups I would be confident knowing my friends could take out adds while I deal with a champ before it enrages - with practice and experience on the encounter. Then there are those fights such as Foundry or the smuggler in BoI that give you no choice but to parse the adds down first.

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no offense BUT there is no ''right'' and ''wrong'' there is 1. personal preference and 2. not all trash packs are the same.

 

Personally i like the dps attacking what i am attacking.. it makes it harder for them to pull off me ( they still do though ... no one bothers to drop threat during trash )

 

To make it easier for them use either verbal calls or marks .. for example bind flame on a easy key and mark your current kill target with it .. when it drops mark something else ..etc..

 

If the DPS start whacking random targets they'd better be geared enough to take the damage.. especially so in random LFG groups.

 

In actual ops I don't even try to tank trash anymore as no one bothers to follow any type of a kill order :) and to be fair trash in the new instances is so much easier than in EV and KP ( especially in 16 man )

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no offense BUT there is no ''right'' and ''wrong'' there is 1. personal preference and 2. not all trash packs are the same.

 

Personally i like the dps attacking what i am attacking.. it makes it harder for them to pull off me ( they still do though ... no one bothers to drop threat during trash )

 

To make it easier for them use either verbal calls or marks .. for example bind flame on a easy key and mark your current kill target with it .. when it drops mark something else ..etc..

 

If the DPS start whacking random targets they'd better be geared enough to take the damage.. especially so in random LFG groups.

 

In actual ops I don't even try to tank trash anymore as no one bothers to follow any type of a kill order :) and to be fair trash in the new instances is so much easier than in EV and KP ( especially in 16 man )

 

If the other mobs are normals or strings, DPS can solo them in a small amount of time while taking minimal damage. This will greatly reduce stress on the healer (since some of those mobs may be hitting healer if they havent been hit yet) and the number of mobs you have to worry about holding onto.

 

In fact, operations trash is about the only time that DPS are supposed to be attacking what the tank is hitting. And frommy experience, the trash in 16man is more annoying than 8man, and the trash in EV and KP was not any easier than the newer stuff.

 

So yeah, I guess I disagree with pretty well every point you made.

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no offense BUT there is no ''right'' and ''wrong'' there is 1. personal preference and 2. not all trash packs are the same.

 

Personally i like the dps attacking what i am attacking.. it makes it harder for them to pull off me ( they still do though ... no one bothers to drop threat during trash )

 

To make it easier for them use either verbal calls or marks .. for example bind flame on a easy key and mark your current kill target with it .. when it drops mark something else ..etc..

 

If the DPS start whacking random targets they'd better be geared enough to take the damage.. especially so in random LFG groups.

 

In actual ops I don't even try to tank trash anymore as no one bothers to follow any type of a kill order :) and to be fair trash in the new instances is so much easier than in EV and KP ( especially in 16 man )

 

 

This is essentially the opposite of everything I have found as a tank. As a vanguard I have a lot of aoe at my disposal, which means I pretty much prefer to run flashpoints without CC. As such, I generally operate on the idea that a sticky grenade or aoe taunt alone will keep the regular or weak mobs occupied long enough to get dead.

 

If the dps decides instead to all pile on the 1-2 elites then the healer is worked harder, making it more likely for some small sub mob to break off me and onto the healer, which means I have to see the healer's health go down, identify the breakaway, break rotation to pick him up, then return. All the while taking 5-6 mobs worth of attacks.

 

If instead dps simply assumes Weakest--> strongest kill priority then by and large the weak mobs will be dead before the taunt wears off/sticky grenade aggro is lost/etc.

 

 

In an operation if the dps doesn't stick on the tank's target then all of a sudden trash is going to hit hard enough to either overtax the healer or get the dps dead.

 

 

Whilst everyone has their own opinion, personally reading through your list I'd have to say I would probably rather not run content with you as my tank.

Edited by paul_preib
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This is essentially the opposite of everything I have found as a tank. As a vanguard I have a lot of aoe at my disposal, which means I pretty much prefer to run flashpoints without CC. As such, I generally operate on the idea that a sticky grenade or aoe taunt alone will keep the regular or weak mobs occupied long enough to get dead.

 

If the dps decides instead to all pile on the 1-2 elites then the healer is worked harder, making it more likely for some small sub mob to break off me and onto the healer, which means I have to see the healer's health go down, identify the breakaway, break rotation to pick him up, then return. All the while taking 5-6 mobs worth of attacks.

 

If instead dps simply assumes Weakest--> strongest kill priority then by and large the weak mobs will be dead before the taunt wears off/sticky grenade aggro is lost/etc.

 

 

In an operation if the dps doesn't stick on the tank's target then all of a sudden trash is going to hit hard enough to either overtax the healer or get the dps dead.

 

 

Whilst everyone has their own opinion, personally reading through your list I'd have to say I would probably rather not run content with you as my tank.

 

Totally aggre.

 

Many mobs in flashpoints have 5-7k health. DPS that are skilled can easily burn these down without taking any damage, dependent on gear you can almost 1hit these ads. And if DPS gets aggro many of us have defensive cooldown(STUNS, increase defense)

 

Its just insanely stupid to have these mobs alive while killing a 30k target.. Since its alot of dmg on group, even if tank manage do hold aggro, and its very easy for someone to break away and turn to healer..

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Most of the stuff is already covered by others, so I will only add this one. I know people don't noticed this much because under ideal circumstances, the adds die too fast for anyone to notice, but this is the trend/pattern I noticed in SWTOR trash pulling.

 

Generally, in a mixed group, I find that the weaker mobs have special abilities that makes them more dangerous than their apparent rank. For example, if you look at the first trash pull in the False Emperor FP, you will notice 2 Elite droids, 2 Strong Sith marauders and 3 Standard Imperial Troopers. The Imperial Troopers are equipped with very fast firing rifles that deals damage every half a second. The Sith have force leap that will root their target for 2 seconds and they like to follow it up with Force Choke. The Elites however, have the least special ability, which is just a simple knock-back.

 

Due to their special traits, the 3 Imperial troopers will actually do the most DPS (note damage per second, means over a period of time if left alive) than the 2 Elites combined due to their rate of fire. Due to their speed of their shooting, their damage will quickly stack up and if they are shooting at the healer, they will cause serious spell push-back effect on them.

 

Sith Marauders come with 3 sec channeling Force Choke which they like to spam on their target. Even if their target used the CC breaker skill, it is not uncommon that the tank will get chain Force Choked because there are 2 of them. When the tank or worse, the healer is getting choked, they won't be able to do their job, which will result in a wipe.

 

The above is just a single example. If you observe carefully in SWTOR, you will noticed that weak mobs tends to serve the role as "CC-er", "De-buffer", "Buff-er" or "Specialist (ones with special weapons like Heat Beams, Full Auto weapons, heavy artillery etc. etc.)" which will make your experience in SWTOR significantly harder if you let them live. Hence, that's another reason why you target the lowest ranked mob in the pack first.

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no offense BUT there is no ''right'' and ''wrong'' there is 1. personal preference and 2. not all trash packs are the same.

 

There is right and wrong. DPS should clear the weaker adds and work their way to stronger ones. Too many times has the healer been killed by weak/standard stragglers because the DPStards focused on the tank's target.

 

A note to all WoW players - Please leave WoW at the door once you load SWTOR.

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Another nice example (with numbers!!).

 

Assume you have a group of 1 tank (500 DPS), 2 DPS (each at 1500 DPS) and a healer who only heals (about 1500 effective HPS).

 

Next assume a relatively normal pull of 2 elites (30k HP & 1.5k DPS), 2 Strongs (20k HP & 1k DPS) and 4 normals (5k HP & 500 DPS). This gives an initial incoming DPS of 7k from 8 mobs.

 

Now look at the 2 kill orders, attacking weak -> strong and attacking the tanks target while the tank holds the elites and strongs.

 

Weak -> Strong:

0s = 7k incoming DPS (DPS start on a nromal each)

4s = 6k incoming DPS (2 normals down, DPS grab the other 2)

8s = 5k incoming DPS (4 normals down, DPS join tank on a strong)

14s = 4k incoming DPS (DPS finish first strong and move onto second)

20s = 3k incoming DPS (Both strongs down, move onto an Elite)

29s = 1.5k incoming DPS (Elite goes down, everyone on last Elite)

38s = 0 incoming DPS (everything dead)

Total incoming damage: 146.5k

 

Attacking the tanks target:

0s = 7k incoming DPS (everyone on Elite)

9s = 5.5k incoming DPS (Elite down, everyone on second Eilte)

18s = 4k incoming DPS (Both Elites down, everyone on a Strong)

24s = 3k incoming DPS (Strong down, everyone on second Strong)

30s = 2k incoming DPS (Second strong down, onto Normals)

34s = 1k incoming DPS (2 normals down)

38s = 0 incoming DPS (everything dead)

Total incoming damage: 166.5k

 

Now that's 13.5% more damage taken if you attack the tanks target. Sure its only 13.5% more and your healer can probably handle it. However, this is also assuming the tank can hold everything and more importantly, nothing is attack the healer. Compound this with the fact that most tank AoEs only affect 5 targets, holding 8 is quite unlikely. It is also important to note that I assumed only single target DPS. AoE's would tweak this, since they tend to just mow down the normals.

 

It would not be unreasonable in the above to assume that a Pyro PT using DFA+ED could take out all the normals in 4.5 seconds and make a noticeable dent in the rest of the pull, makes it harder on the tank but it gets the job done. It's also important to remember that many attacks stun weak and normal mobs, which reduces the incoming DPS.

 

All that said, the more worrying figure is the 9 seconds of 7k incoming DPS if you focus on the tanks target vs 4s if you kill weak to strong. Now the tank has mitigation (I'm assuming 65% net mitigation given the relative gear level) so if everything is on the tank including all healing, then incoming DPS drop below incoming HPS at 14s killing Weak -> Strong and 18s killing tanks target. This also puts the tank down 7.7k using W->S and 12.4k down attacking the tanks target before healing offsets incoming damage and starts to bring the tank back up.

 

Thats all assuming both methods are executed perfectly and the tank can hold everything. That doesn't happen and killing weak -> strong also gets rid of potential points of failure in the system, in that tank doesn't have to hold onto dead things. Similarly, the tank gets to build extra aggro on the tougher targets while the DPS are killing the normals so the likelihood of a DPS pulling off the tank is lower. Given the DPS doesn't have 65% mitigation, if they do pull they will greatly increase the healing required.

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I was a DK tank in WoW for a couple of years and oddly enough I'm an assassin tank here in SWTOR, and I find myself holding a great deal to habits picked up by tanking in WoW that are otherwise ignored by most tanks that I ran next to in raids or when I'm on my dps or healer in HM FPs.

 

In WoW, when dps pulls agro in a raid (even if it was trash) there was a problem somewhere and the only time that it was accepted to happen was on AoE pulls, while here it is more accepted and it's almost to be expected when I'm healing or dpsing for the tank(s) to not even bother trying to hold all of the active mobs.

 

Maybe I'm in the minority, but that drives me nuts. When I'm tanking it doesn't matter if it's a raid or a FP, I make damn sure that I hold threat on my half of the mobs (everything when I'm the only tank, better that the healers are healing me than the dps).

 

The non-guild groups that I get into with group finder/whatever are often stunned by my point of view on the subject, and even in my old guild the two old tanks (jugg/PT) admitted that they just grabbed "whatever" and picked stuff up as it came.

 

Am I really in the minority that tanks should protect the group from agro on more than just the boss?

 

----

Rant aside...

 

If you want the dps to understand why you set a kill order to be what it is, then just make them understand that in WoW you took out the most dangerous mob(s) first whenever possible, and that more often than not the Gold is not the most threatening mob in a pull, in fact it serves more as the tank of the group since it has the most health and typically the most annoying abilities. While the multiple silvers in the pull, which themselves are putting out high dps and are much easier to kill, thereby taking pressure off the tank and the healer by taking them out quick(ish).

 

As for mobs being spread out, in more than a few cases (not all obviously) you can use LoS to group entire pulls so that even a jugg can AoE tank the given pull. It just becomes a matter of how much time the group is willing to spend on a particular pull, in WoW the pulls take as long as they have to while in this game people tend to want to drive through them without any mind for a clean pull.

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Look, all of you are thinking too much with all these numbers and analysis. If they play any type of MMO at all, they should understand one universal concept that applies both in PVP and PVE.

 

YOU KILL THE SQUISHIES FIRST!

 

Ask them, if they were in PVP of any kind in WoW, what do they kill first (besides the healers)? You kill Cloth--> Leather -> Chain -> Plate, because even though the Plate wearer might be the least geared of the group, you kill off the Clothies first because most of the time they are the most annoying, high damage casters that will obliterate your team if left to their own device. Combined the fact that they have the lowest armor mitigation and HP in the group, it make sense to eliminate them as a source of damage early in the fight.

 

Same thing goes for the trash pulls here, except much easier. The weak and standard mobs are your Clothies with lowest armor and HP. Most DPS if they are not complete scrubs can kill them in 3 hits, maximum. Which means it is not even worth the tank to try grabbing their attention off DPS because 100% they will be dead before they have a chance to fight back at the DPS. Even if you do take damage from weak and standard mob as a DPS the damage received will be miniscule; your natural regen will probably heal you faster having a healer cast a heal on you.

Edited by PhantomMalice
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Look, all of you are thinking too much with all these numbers and analysis. If they play any type of MMO at all, they should understand one universal concept that applies both in PVP and PVE.

 

YOU KILL THE SQUISHIES FIRST!

 

This post is on point.

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If the other mobs are normals or strings, DPS can solo them in a small amount of time while taking minimal damage. This will greatly reduce stress on the healer (since some of those mobs may be hitting healer if they havent been hit yet) and the number of mobs you have to worry about holding onto.

 

In fact, operations trash is about the only time that DPS are supposed to be attacking what the tank is hitting. And frommy experience, the trash in 16man is more annoying than 8man, and the trash in EV and KP was not any easier than the newer stuff.

 

So yeah, I guess I disagree with pretty well every point you made.

 

maybe you should learn to read then .. it seems like you're agreeing with me.

Edited by todorovh
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maybe you should learn to read then .. it seems like you're agreeing with me.

 

no offense BUT there is no ''right'' and ''wrong'' there is 1. personal preference and 2. not all trash packs are the same.

 

Personally i like the dps attacking what i am attacking.. it makes it harder for them to pull off me ( they still do though ... no one bothers to drop threat during trash )

 

To make it easier for them use either verbal calls or marks .. for example bind flame on a easy key and mark your current kill target with it .. when it drops mark something else ..etc..

 

If the DPS start whacking random targets they'd better be geared enough to take the damage.. especially so in random LFG groups.

 

In actual ops I don't even try to tank trash anymore as no one bothers to follow any type of a kill order :) and to be fair trash in the new instances is so much easier than in EV and KP ( especially in 16 man )

 

Well, let's see, let me know which parts of this I misread.

 

1: DPS should attack the tank's target.

 

I disagree, I think they should kill the normals and strongs first, while the tank should focus on holding champions and elites first.

 

2: Using marks and verbal calls:

 

I guess I don't completely disagree with this, but it's way more effort than any FP is worth and I never find the need to waste the time doing it. However, as you are using this to facilitate having dps attack your current target, going to have to say I disagree here too.

 

3: Whacking random targets:

 

It sounds as though you are complaining about them attacking things you are not tanking. I say, let them kill the normals and strongs while you take the elites.

 

4: Trash in newer ops is easier than old.

 

Disagree. Other than the packs around fabricator droid in KP, trash in the KP/EV tier, while long, was/is easy.

 

5: Trash is easier on 16man.

 

I feel that the opposite is the case.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I, too, played a DK tank in WoW and now play a Inq tank in SWTOR, and from what I can tell, there are some basic truths. The best way I can see how to explain the difference between the two style is that the SWTOR DPS should act like an "off tank" in a riad. The main tank in a WoW raid *usually* tanks the boss, and the off-tank (or secondary tank) will sort out any adds, with DPS being applied to necessary targets as laid out by the main tank.

 

DPS in SWTOR simply take on that role and sort out any problematic mobs to protect the healer from drawing too much aggro, that's all.

 

I remember playing my first FP as a Merc, and that's what I did. I asked the tank what he wanted, and he said to hold the adds to prect the healer. Easy, I though - the role of an off-tank.

 

But that's just from my own perspective as a long-time WoW player coming to SWTOR.

 

I think it comes down to communication and not wanting to rush through like some feral coked-out monkey with ADHD. A little fire discipline and communication go a long way.

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I manage to rush through and keep aggro on stuff I engage just fine. Problems arise when the DPS, or the healer, start imagining they know the run and the path better than me. I simply let them tank the cc's they broke and mobs they aggroed. Smart ones fall in line. Dumber ones get killed and trolled for their efforts.
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