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How do you guys approach the issue of skill level in determining who goes on ops?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions
How do you guys approach the issue of skill level in determining who goes on ops?

slafko's Avatar

01.14.2013 , 06:59 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by TyrKartelos View Post
If they are in your guild then dont be a dick about it.
I'd say "don't be a dick to anyone" regardless of them being in your guild or not. Courtesy and politeness go a long way and most people will not feel threatened, offended or attacked personally. The small bunch that will is not worth the effort and is fair game for trolling and ignoring.

anstalt's Avatar

01.14.2013 , 07:12 AM | #12
What you choose to do, do it immediately! When I was guild leader / raid leader in LOTRO we had this problem but we took the "fair" approach and just rotated everyone in to raids regardless of skill level. As a result, we got stuck on a boss at some point and couldn't progress because we'd always have 1 or 2 "bad" players who'd wipe us. As a result, the good raiders quit the guild due to lack of progress, my friends quit because raiding was no longer fun and the bad players quit because they were dying all the time and expected to be carried.

So, bad players can destroy a raiding guild if you dont handle them. Even being a dick and just booting them is going to be better, long term, for the guild than doing nothing.

What we ended up doing im my guild after we'd rebuilt it is start a "core raid list" as well as an "improvers list". You would make the core list if:

1) You are a fast learner
2) You can play your class very well
3) You meet minimum gear requirements

Everybody else would be put on the improvers list. The officers would keep track of suggestions for improvements for all raiders (core and non-core), for example suggestions on gear improvements, rotation, specific boss fights etc. Officers would offer training to all members.

For progression raids, raiders on the core list would get priority. We also specifically run training / gearing raids for the non-core raiders. A raid is considered progression if we haven't cleared it 3 times. After 3 times it is considered "on farm" and we stop worrying about peoples ability to learn and just try to get everyone through the raid. It is much easier to carry people / train people once the top raiders have cleared a boss.

Whilst our system is not perfect, it provides everyone with a clear understanding of where they stand in the guild, what they need to improve, who to ask etc. It got rid of all the entitlement players who expected to be on the core list but didn't make it because they aren't very good. Most people on our improvers list will never make the core list because they just aren't motivated to, but every now and again one of them decides to progress and will act upon our suggestions. I wish we could be more inclusive of people but some people *are* stupid / lazy / nooby / whatever and are simply not capable of clearing the hardest content in game.
Anstalt - lvl 50 valor 81 Shadow Consular

Currently retired due to poor design decisions within the game that have killed its longevity. Get rid of Hickman before he ruins the game completely!

SafeJungleFever's Avatar

01.14.2013 , 01:22 PM | #13
My best advice is run parsers and use logs. Discuss them at the end of the raid or the next time everyone's on. If it's an issue of selective deafness, then do the debriefs at the end of every failed pull. "Ok what went wrong here? Oh, so-and-so wiped again? Oh whosit is not only dead last in DPS but also 20% behind third? Again?' But do it nicely.

Another thing that helps is having lots of 'fun runs'. Asation SM in particular is a blast to run. Our guild runs it 1-2 times a week depending on if we get a 16 together or two 8s. Low key, low pressure runs in which weaker players CAN be carried. I've even been known to respec into a kolto bomb/grav round hybrid to help shore up a weak healer just so we could include them. By doing a lot of these, people are being included more than excluded.

A corollary to this is be aware of how many people you can carry and in which positions. A 'fun run' can turn into an OMG rage quit if you try to carry two DPS circumstances, or a healer or a tank. And at other times its manageable.

Mentor systems help a lot too. Sometimes you get someone with amazing raid awareness but difficulty putting out DPS. Find them someone you know in guild our outside who'll help em out. Sometimes it's the opposite. That's what fun runs are for, when it's relaxed enough you can coach while not wiping. In addition, some gentle nudging into re-roll and/or respec can be helpful. As a gunnery commando it pains me to admit this, but people who can't handle complex rotations can do serviceable work in simpler ACs.

Recognize the difference between skill level and experience. When I started raiding I was pretty pathetic. Given that SWTOR was my first real video game, that shouldn't be too much of a surprise. Nowadays, I'm our top DPS, one of our raid tanks, and on the call-list for a couple of other guilds for both tanking and DPS. Thank god no one wrote me off. So it was a real kick in the face to my self-image when I realized I'd wrongly done that with someone in my guild. Yeah they were rough, really rough, poor raid awareness, inability to follow mechanics, and poor DPS. Fast forward two months later, and they're now a perfectly competent member of the guild.

Finally, I'm going to echo the person above me who said that whatever it is, handle it quickly. Things can fester and get ugly if left unhandled for long periods of time.

Chaqen's Avatar

01.14.2013 , 01:48 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by _Darkstar View Post
So it is only a game but you don't think it is worth enjoying it with your friend because success is too important to you?

If I was ever in this situation I would re-assess my own priorities and if raid success meant more to me than actually playing with someone I like then I would probably quit the game because it was doing me more harm than good.
The way i see it is that i raid maybe 6 to 10 hours a week; that leaves me with plenty of time to mess around with friends and people that i see as great social friends but not the greatest players.

It is sorta like if you played baseball as a hobby; you may play in a league there is competitive, and winning is very important, while also playing in a second league that is more suited to social aspects and where winning isnt important at all.

It doesnt make you a dick to play in a league where winning and competition is important.

@OP, it really depends on what type of raid force you have, if you guys are more casual, hardcore.... somewhere in the middle. It is important to define where your raid force stands and address issues concerning under-performance accordingly to where you guys stand (ex. casual really doesnt give a damn and will sugarcoat things, while a hardcore will be straightforward).
-La'Mis Legacy- Proud Member of Hatred and PUGS

Biskibis-Operative -- Kemenotic-Marauder -- Chaqen-Darksin -- Wallabe-Sniper -- Belsapher-Mercenary

dlakur's Avatar

01.14.2013 , 02:17 PM | #15
On top of the personal mentoring, parse analysis, etc. it might be helpful to have not just "casual" runs but "introductory" runs where you take some less-experienced people along for the explicit purpose of learning to execute mechanics and utilize class skills. If you tell everyone up front that you will have an intro op, easily annoyed vets will know to stay away, helpful vets will want to come along, and those who need improving will be more open to ask questions (unlike in other ops where people might be intimidated and not want to slow the raid down with noob questions).

In my experience this has been a great way to get PVPers involved in PVE, give experienced folks a chance to try a new class/role, and satisfy the desire for everyone to raid without bogging down high-end progression runs with excessive mistakes.