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PvE Guide to the Lethality Sniper by B'oard

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Gunslinger / Sniper
PvE Guide to the Lethality Sniper by B'oard

paowee's Avatar


paowee
01.16.2013 , 02:26 PM | #51
Quote: Originally Posted by Ardarell_Solo View Post
Shouldn't you generally apply the longest ticking dot first? i.e. First CG then IP and then CD?

I find like this i can make sure all three Dots are still up through the whole length of the second Cull channelling, regardless of how many Rifle Shots I have inserted to save energy or other abilities I might have inserted e.g. due to target swaps and then returning to the boss...
In my experience using IP then CG then CD makes it so that my CG and CD are still ticking for a safe amount of time for my 2nd Cull:

IP - --CG-(X) - CD - Cull
IP - CG - RS - CD - Cull where (X) is 1 GCD used between CG and CD.

On the other hand:

CG---(X) - (X) - CD - Cull
CG - IP - RS - CD - Cull uses 2 GCDs in between CG and CD.

This is susceptible to having your DoTs fall of while 2nd Cull is channeling. If you take a close look (zoom in ) at the debuffs in the video Simple Hybrid Rotation, you can see that IP - CG - RS - CD puts you in an already tight "timer." Having one more GCD between CG and CD will put you closer to having one of your DoTs wear off during your 2nd Culll.

This is not taking into account raid mechanics, dodging circles, and lag (which i was experiencing heavily in those videos..). At the same time you are also trying to squeeze in Ambush / Lazed Snipe / SS and even EP in between to do more DPS. Your 2nd Cull might] just not make it in time before your dots wear off since there are only so much GCDs we can put in between those 2 Culls.

Ofcourse if you can pull it off and get better mileage with CG - IP - RS - CD - Cull then that's great! will try this out and see how it goes.
Republic < Intrepid > The Harbinger slinger sage vanguard dps
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paowee
01.16.2013 , 04:33 PM | #52
Quote: Originally Posted by Ardarell_Solo View Post
1) You basically insert Flurry (RS), whenever you're under 70, except when Sabotage Charge (EP) is ready, because if you use it before Wounding Shots (Cull) and Speedhot (SoS) you can go to 60 energy and still activate Wounding Shots (Cull), you'll be alright by the time Speedhot (Sos) is finished.

2) As in the rotation described in this thread you replace Speedhot - Flurry - (Flurry) (SoS - RS - (RS)) by XS-FReighter (OS) - Flurry (RS), whenever Freighter (OS) comes off Cooldown but Cool Head (AP) is not ready yet.

3) If I have enough energy I also replace the two Flurrys (RSs) before the second Wounding Shots (Cull) by either Aimed Shot (Ambush) oder Lucky Charged Burst (Lazed Snipe).

4) Since Sabotage Charge (EP) won't be ready for every wounding shots (Cull) you replace it with Flurry (RS), when it's not. Rule is, use Sabotage Charge (EP) before Wounding Shots (Cull) for Max Energy Regen, even if Wounding Shots (Cull= comes off CD some split seconds earlier (which tends to happen a lot when you go through this rotation severall times over).

Thoughts?
Great post. In my own words, correct me if i'm wrong:

1) When under 70 energy, use 1 Rifle Shot before proceeding to the next ability in your rotation.
When Explosive Probe (Cluster Bombs) is present on the target, it is safe to use Cull at 60 energy.
When Explosive Probe (Cluster Bombs) is not present on the target, use Cull when you have at least ~80 energy

2) If AP is down, replace SoS with OS followed by 1-2 RS then Cull; as seen in this video Simple Lethality/Engineering Rotation with Orbital Strike

3) CG - CD - Cull - (filler abilities ) - Cull is your core rotation.

The more abilities you use in between those 2 Culls, the more damage you will do (this will depend on your regenerated energy, as well as if you have EP on the target.

4) This is good input. You put EP in a set position in the rotation and use RS as a substitute instead of using it like a "proc" ability that you need to use as soon at it comes off cooldown. From what I understand it will now looks like this:

IP - CG - (RS) - CD - EP / RS - Cull - SoS - Ambush / (SS-RS) / (LS-RS) - Cull repeat ∞ instead of

EP - [ IP - CG - (RS) - CD - Cull - SoS - Ambush / (SS-RS) / (LS-RS) - Cull ] repeat ∞

EP is at the start and outside the bracket because it is used, if possible, immediately when it becomes available ~regardless of which part of the rotation you are in.

I think that saving EP consistently to be used before Cull greatly helps with your energy regen especially when you had just put 3 DoTs up one after the other. However from experience sometimes I find that I can not spare even 1 GCD before a Cull (due to both lag and raid mechanics). In these instances I would "delay" using EP and recast my DoTs first:

IP - CG - (RS) - CD and then EP - Cull.
Republic < Intrepid > The Harbinger slinger sage vanguard dps
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Ardarell_Solo
01.17.2013 , 03:22 AM | #53
@Synavix: Wow, big thank you for your research, now it's clarified once and for all for me, really big thank you for your time doing this!!

@paowee: you're very welcome and your interpretation is exactly what I meant nothing more to add, have fun with it :-)
El'ethon (Sentinel) | Rickmyron (Gunslinger) | Alreegan (Sage) | Vayus (Guardian)
Dacs (Commando) | Troř (Vanguard) | Craeg (Scoundrel)
<Taking the Jawas to Alderaan> <- Heiler gesucht! Gerne bewerben! (T3-M4)
I'd be honored if you check my Watchman / Annihilation PVE Guide

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paowee
01.17.2013 , 12:15 PM | #54
Added a 13 minute video against the Ops Dummy! I started with the max dps rotation followed by the simple rotation with os.

13 minute video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nelEwlZa6Qk

Thanks for your addition guys! I've added them to the original post.

Updated Interrogation Probe, Explosive Probe, Cull, and the Videos section.

@Synavix: I've been hearing about this rumor about GS. Good to know and thanks for the research!
=========================
Coming soon:
Video: Basic Lethality Rotation
=========================
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Synavix
01.17.2013 , 02:56 PM | #55
Glad to help. Hopefully I didn't overlook anything major that would cause those findings to be wrong, but they seem to be right in line with most of what I've been reading the last couple months as this Hybrid has gained more popularity.

Great topic too. Wish I had more opportunity to practice my hybrid rotations and energy management, but I find myself on add/mechanic duty 90% of the time, and full Leth has become more natural to me. I could definitely use a few tweaks here and there; the dummy parses were informative for sure.

It'll be interesting to see how the expansion affects this spec. Way too early to know for sure, but I think there's a lot of potential if they don't try to nerf it directly.

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paowee
01.17.2013 , 03:05 PM | #56
Quote: Originally Posted by Synavix View Post
Glad to help. Hopefully I didn't overlook anything major that would cause those findings to be wrong, but they seem to be right in line with most of what I've been reading the last couple months as this Hybrid has gained more popularity.

Great topic too. Wish I had more opportunity to practice my hybrid rotations and energy management, but I find myself on add/mechanic duty 90% of the time, and full Leth has become more natural to me. I could definitely use a few tweaks here and there; the dummy parses were informative for sure.

It'll be interesting to see how the expansion affects this spec. Way too early to know for sure, but I think there's a lot of potential if they don't try to nerf it directly.
I'm a Lethality fan I will probably stick to Full Lethality when the expansion comes out. Although playing Hybrid will do nothing but improve how you can play the Full Lethality spec imo. It forces you to use a lot more abilities and manage energy even better and when swapping back to the Lethality only spec, all that knowledge converts to DPS.

Hmm here's a parse of that 13-minute video http://www.torparse.com/a/101971 The rotation wasn't as smooth as I'd wanted it to be.. I just wanted to make a quick sustained vid showing the "gist" of Simple Hybrid rotation.

This is a good parse to look at http://www.torparse.com/a/38434/time...587/1351467923
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Ardarell_Solo
01.18.2013 , 04:39 AM | #57
Wow, sorting all this out with you guys improved the understanding of my class immensely, thanks a lot - AND it's great fun :-)

Good point about the expansion, I've been "worrying" about this, ever since I "discovered" the hybrid specc (on the only German server still active it's rarely played or talked about) and pushed my dps by 250 coming from the Sharp Shooter Spec (don't know how the left tree is called for Imperials) I had used before. New powerful top talents in the trees will very likely make hybrid specs less competitive in general. For that reason I'm very much tempted to try out full lethality (i.e. "Dirty Fighting" for my Slinger) which I haven't done at all yet, using the specc and rotations explained here.

Side note: I tried out my Hybrid Slinger in PVP the other night, hadn't played any PvP with the Slinger at all yet, so I used the recruit ear pieces, implant and relics, in all other slots i simply used my full T5 PVE stuff. Though I only had about 350 Expertise, I ranked second or third in overall damage in most Warzones, and won a lot of one on one encounters against players with much more expertise rating (I assume). The thing here is, that if you apply three dots, they almost never all get cleaned, so Cull/Wounding Shots literally eats through your opponents. I'm now wondering how Lethality/Dirty Fighting would work, since that is the classical PVP specc by design...
El'ethon (Sentinel) | Rickmyron (Gunslinger) | Alreegan (Sage) | Vayus (Guardian)
Dacs (Commando) | Troř (Vanguard) | Craeg (Scoundrel)
<Taking the Jawas to Alderaan> <- Heiler gesucht! Gerne bewerben! (T3-M4)
I'd be honored if you check my Watchman / Annihilation PVE Guide

paowee's Avatar


paowee
01.20.2013 , 06:45 AM | #58
Quote: Originally Posted by Ardarell_Solo View Post
Wow, sorting all this out with you guys improved the understanding of my class immensely, thanks a lot - AND it's great fun :-)

Good point about the expansion, I've been "worrying" about this, ever since I "discovered" the hybrid specc (on the only German server still active it's rarely played or talked about) and pushed my dps by 250 coming from the Sharp Shooter Spec (don't know how the left tree is called for Imperials) I had used before. New powerful top talents in the trees will very likely make hybrid specs less competitive in general. For that reason I'm very much tempted to try out full lethality (i.e. "Dirty Fighting" for my Slinger) which I haven't done at all yet, using the specc and rotations explained here.

Side note: I tried out my Hybrid Slinger in PVP the other night, hadn't played any PvP with the Slinger at all yet, so I used the recruit ear pieces, implant and relics, in all other slots i simply used my full T5 PVE stuff. Though I only had about 350 Expertise, I ranked second or third in overall damage in most Warzones, and won a lot of one on one encounters against players with much more expertise rating (I assume). The thing here is, that if you apply three dots, they almost never all get cleaned, so Cull/Wounding Shots literally eats through your opponents. I'm now wondering how Lethality/Dirty Fighting would work, since that is the classical PVP specc by design...
Full Lethality should come to you naturally if you've practiced / played the Lethality / Engineering spec. You have fewer choices as far as abilities go and at the same time your "substitute for IP" , which is Weakening Blast, costs no energy! There's also a lot more leeway as far as mistakes go since you have Lingering Toxins. Full Lethality imo excels in fights with a lot of movement.

How full Lethality would work in PvP you mean? The playstyle imo is the same as Hybrid but a bit less taxing on energy and a ~bit less burst via Explosive Probe cluster bombs.

I've done a couple of parses and comparisons with Wales and his findings so far was that, the more you are able to use/squeeze SoS and Lazed Snipe the higher your DPS will be. it can get hectic squeezing in that LS or SoS when you need to cast Orbital without Adrenal Probe inbetween Culls...

http://www.torparse.com/a/105440/tim...590/0/Overview
http://www.torparse.com/a/105449/tim...156/0/Overview
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paowee
01.20.2013 , 02:36 PM | #59
Added to the OP:

This is a good analysis of Wales' 2200 DPS parse vs my 2122 parses for those interested. Thanks once again to Wales for being such a great a help!

"Now for analysis, a few parses to look at. I tried to normalize it all to 300s exactly so the damage breakdown can be compared 1:1.

2200 Me: http://www.torparse.com/a/93206/time...0/Damage+Dealt
2190 Me2: http://www.torparse.com/a/67229/time...0/Damage+Dealt
2122You: http://www.torparse.com/a/103043/tim...0/Damage+Dealt
2108 You2: http://www.torparse.com/a/96772/time...0/Damage+Dealt

Usage (Wales, wales2, Boarder, boarder2)
Shatter shot: 6, 7, 6, 4
OS: 4, 4, 4, 3
EP: 10, 10, 10, 9
Cull: 26, 25, 26, 29
SoS: 13, 14, 11, 11
IP: 14, 14, 14, 15
CG: 14, 14, 13, 15
CD: 14, 14, 13, 15
Snipe: 5, 4, 4, 5
Ambush: 5, 5, 7, 1
Rifle shot: 33, 30, 38, 25
Total skills time, roughly: 285s, 283s, 291s, 264s

SHORT VERSION
Quote:
The 2200 parse did 2 more SoS, 1 more CG and CD, 1 more Snipe, 2 less Ambush, and used 5 less RS.
LONG VERSION
Spoiler
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paowee
01.30.2013 , 01:14 PM | #60
Added/Updated the Variations section of the guide:

Quote:
Some variations of the above Lethality / Engineering rotation include using Corrosive Grenade first followed by Interrogation Probe, then Corrosive Dart and then Cull. This way your DoTs all end at roughly the ~same time. I have not played / tested this rotation much but I believe this is one way of doing a "More Cull" rotation (see end of spoiler tag):

1) CG - IP - CD - Cull - SoS...


Some people use a different rotation altogether where Cull is used immediately after Corrosive Grenade and Corrosive Dart (akin to the Full Lethality rotation) and then Interrogation Probe. Doing this might give you more Culls in the same amount of time compared to the IP - CG - CD rotation shown in this thread:

2) CG - CD - Cull - IP - SoS...


Another rotation is one that uses CD first then CG followed by Cull, then just putting DoTs as they come off. You may have better DoT uptime if you can memorize the timers on your DoTs and keep them on the target 100% of the time as opposed to do IP - CG - CD rotation shown in this thread (where IP and CD will wear off at certain times).

3) CD - CG - Cull...

P.S. Other people are able to hit the 2K+ mark using rotations different from what is shown in this thread. An example of this is a "More Cull" rotation that sacrifices SoS for more Cull and better DoT uptime. The Simple Lethality / Engineering Rotation shown in this thread is not the "More Cull" rotation.
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