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I know how to fix sages! Push backs on attacks!

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
I know how to fix sages! Push backs on attacks!

Aital's Avatar


Aital
01.09.2013 , 09:19 AM | #1
I think to fix sages all of their main attacks should have some lv of pushback. Telekinetic throw, Disturbance, and Force Wave. Not just a knockcown. Then it would allow kiting and proper interaction of appropriate enemy skills. They could also give the sorcerer a shock version that makes them each a little different.(or not)

For telekinetic throw you would have to use another skill then use it again to get a second push back. Then it doesn't push back to max each time you use it as balance. but you could use disturbance then it again. Or it could have a 10 second debuff push back timer for all push back per character. It would push them back to max range(30/35) and then act as normal. You could even make it so different ranges have separate push backs. then the 5 meter range would be useful for disturbance. It would make a killer kite for Sages. If you get the 5meter skill you can then proc for a second push back.

This would make the skill for jumps(guardian etc) more useful and those classes appropriate counter characters and make them really valuable against sages. It would add some interesting dynamics to combat. Notice those classes have alot of immunity already from jumps etc. It would fit in perfectly.

Obviously things immune to push back would not be harmed. so gunslingers would still be immune under cover. Unless there is some directional reality to the immunity!

I think this is the perfect way to balance sages and make them viable! And the pushbacks should have proper resolve. Maybe a third of a bar or less. Maybe 1/6th.

I was reading this thread and came up with the idea:

Thread about pebble change!

It's inspired by this video:

SWTOR clip

You could also just give the push back to Disturbance and/or Telekinetic wave somewhere and avoid Telekinetic Throw.(Though it does say "Telekinetic" throw and it could add and extra pushback for survivability). Hopefully accessible to balance and Telekinetic and probably Seer!

If they do it could become gain able at like lv 40 as a power or be in the lower part of the Telekinetic or balance tree somewhere.

OlosBC's Avatar


OlosBC
01.09.2013 , 10:47 AM | #2
Yea let's make them the gods of control (or just the gods of full resolving people) in PvP while still leaving them lackluster in pve. Sounds like a plan.
Olos - 55 Hybrid Powertech
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Previously Fonia and Daygoru of Tempest server in SWG.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
01.09.2013 , 11:24 AM | #3
First things first, pushback is not the same thing as knockback. What you're *wanting* to refer to is knockback, wherein an enemy is literally moved away from you forcibly. Pushback is the mechanical effect that results in longer cast times and shorter channel times when you are hit by an attack. Use the proper terminology please.

Secondly, knockback is not simply a source of control. It's also a source of direct mitigation. When you hit a target with a knockback, it interrupts whatever they're doing (making each cast functionally an interrupt). If you got knockback with *every* attack (or even a basic one like Disturbance or TkT), you could beat down on any caster by interrupting 90% of the stuff they try to throw at you: 1v1 wouldn't go to the person with the best damage or skill; it would go to the person with the most alacrity to just constantly pump out KB.

Third, knockback immunity is nowhere *near* as prevalent as you seem to think it is. The only classes that get it are Gunslingers (while in cover *and* they activate Hunker Down, which provides them with 20 seconds of immunity every 60 seconds, 45 if Sharpshooter), Guardians (tier 3 Vigilance for 4 seconds after leaping which means that only Vigilance gets it regularly and that any Focus Guardian that gets it is handicapping themself by not getting Force Exhaustion for Singularity generation), and Vanguards (tier 5 Tactics for 8 seconds every 30; only Tactics gets it and, even then, they don't have a leap so it's got to be used to actually close in the first place). That's 5 specs out of 24 and 2 of them aren't all that effective in PvP in the first place (Vigilance and Tactics) thanks to lacking effective utility and burst DPS.

Fourth, knockback is *annoying as hell* in PvE. There are already Sages and Shadows that think that Force Wave is a *damage* power even though it's actually most useful as a knockback utility and end up pissing off virtually every tank they run with by scattering packs and making a general nuisance of themselves. Imagine what would happen if the baseline attack (Disturbance for TK and TkT for Balance) suddenly started pushing enemies around: they would either have to stop using it to avoid screwing up pulls or they would simply not be welcome. The auto KB on Sharpshooter Aim Shot is *already* annoying enough for most and that only applies to targets within 10m with a 12 sec CD. Imagine what would happen if it applied to Charged Burst (their spam ST cast) and wasn't range limited. You probably wouldn't be allowed to have that talent in any PvE guild and would most likely get kicked the second a random group realized you had it.

TL:DR
No, that's a *terrible* idea for so many reasons.
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-Sirus-'s Avatar


-Sirus-
01.09.2013 , 03:47 PM | #4
... just no. All you are asking for is an easy button for solo questing and pvp. I'd disagree that sages are in particular need of fixing, but I'll save that for another time.

From the sound of your post, you don't actually want to kite. You want to stay stationary and make it impossible for enemies to reach you.. We already get force stun, the stun on project, force slow, force wave, force speed, and force lift to help us kite. Learn to use this abilities if you actually want to kite enemies.

Aital's Avatar


Aital
01.10.2013 , 02:28 AM | #5
You have to stay stationary at least some of thetime so it doesn't realy matter. I was thinking this would help pure telekinetic sages since the problem with pure telekinetic is they are static and defenseless and count as a virtual damage buff without actually adjusting stats. So easy fix!. And the kiting is virtually a joke. it's not real kiting. They could always add more abilities to the other classes also if they need to. Or just keep the resolve higher so it can only be used to many times. The 1/3rd would be good then. you only get so many. or 1/2 even then for PVP. and for PVE the telekinetic wave would hit up to 5 guy back that far so it would be a huge buff. You would just have to stay and distance to not drive everyone else nuts potentially(but good for other reasons potentially, like splitting up over large accidental mobs to save the group. Just have to be creative). But great for solo work!

It's also on a debuff to spread it out. so for 10 seconds(it can be adjusted) they can try to get back. That is why I proposed it not be applied to TKThrow. Then it has a more limited use and doesn't apply a debuff to the 50% slow. besides allowing TKthrow and the other two's, potential, separate knockbacks(on the same timer length.) Just lets you use the resolve faster in PVP. So it's also prone to user stupidity so it's balanced by intelligent play. And the resolve amount can balance out the maximum use.

If it's just disturbance and telekinetic wave that apply the debuf you only get one knockback. Some parts of telekinetic specs and the class in general could use it. It would help in PVP and PVE except on boss fights on the bosses themselves. But it would improve them a lot. And in a fight 10 seconds is a long time. But the debuff could be anywhere between 10-30 seconds or something as needed. It should be designed to be usable only so much per target!

In case I wasn't clear the debuff means the knockback will not happen while it is applied. the different range thing would potentially give the two Pure Tele spells a seperate one giving you two knockbacks if TKthrow also has one naturally. But the resolve would not be lowered. It would just be potentially used faster in PVP. Great for PVE.

Basically you would just need to modify the debuff timer mainly for one on one. The resolve adjust would be secondary. I think you are overestimating how much it could be used. You would literally get only 1-2 per fight. And with even a 10 second timer maybe only 3. Could be wrong on the 10 second timer. But the 30 second timer could set it in stone.

And pushing it to max range is a bit of a downside potentially. both you and the enemy can run away. so it adds survivability and more kiting ability. I was thinking the 10 second timer would allow a few more uses to allow some dynamics to the fight. The enemy can always stay max range or literally run back a step and get out of range every time you use it as well. And a 35m knock would put it out of range for the 30 meters. So it adds dynamics. And of course this helps in kiting. It just also helps the Telekinetic turret without any choice so it's PVP usable. Or closer to it. And helps with solo fights for even balance if it must. Just adjust it as needed for balance.

If you used balance and speced the 35m range for disturbance. You would only be using it to push him out of range or have one knockback! You have to think of the dynamics. That give all classes the ability to run and kite you. Because to cast again at that range you have to use a cast time spell. that gives balance naturally. You have to use it inteligently. It balances itself out more than you guys are thinking. Any class can run and/or recharge ability to attack then more easily. It just gives an initial timer for the other spells to get some more damage if the enemy feels like walking into you like an idiot! It would be OP if it was only a 20-25m knockback! 8p

That leaves me with the question of if you would put it on telekinetic throw or not though. mIght be annoying to have it on every attack. it has the proc for disturbance after all.

What are the classes it goes against in the proccess. correct these please. don't know them all.

Gunslinger: has 35m range attacks to counter. This makes him even with a TK sage.

Scoundrel: Cloaking and or?

Commando: has alot of potential to kill and range

Vanguard: defense definetly has survivability. What are it's damage types like?

Sentinals: well they are sentinals. 8) they only have to outhink you, use up your timers, and get enough time to kill or restart if you push back. Could be interesting.

Guardian: either strong defense or lots of jumps. Plenty of opportunity to attack.

Shadow: well cloaking so.... He can just kick your butt if he wants.

I'm pretty sure they all have avenues of attack. they just have to be smart in 1v1. In multi player combat the knockback is only so useful to begin with. You can only push back so much even if you try to maximize it's use somehow. I don't think it's that overpowering. You just have to use it intelligently. Which could add fun to fighting Sages!


I still think it's a good idea. Especially if you think what could be done with it.

Mind you it would play like this:

Lets say it's 10s timer, seperated based on range, x% resolve, And TKthrow has a knockback.

1. You are either healer and have 1-2 knockbacks and use them at will to do what you need to keep a guy or two off. Or a bubble stun, or whatever, and a point in TK Wave.

2. A pure balance or hybrid based on TK Throw as main. You use more movement and stock procs and instants. If you use no range buff you use whatever to push and hope they come at you or close in some range and hit them following to hold distance. Or you have two separate distances and two knockbacks. One of them is your main spell and one of the two others push him outo range of normals spells so you either swtich toa much lower DPS or move in for range! The enemy either comes in or moves back or try toget in range for a leap. It hurts either way. Or you start with the longer and let him come in and push but he still can run if he wants to kite you!

3. You are Telekinetic based! You have a main attack that pushes him to your normal range meaning you keep them in range or they run. If you let them come in or they leap you then use the Tk Throw to get longer range when they are too close. You then hit them with a partial spell or try to hold them in range which they can run freely unless you apply force slow.

The enemy has to basically let them abuse you to have it work. But it's great for mobs in PVE. TK sages get the best setup becuase they get the second ranged spell actually stay in range of their normals. You can use that as a hybrid as well, but you only have 5 meters to kite and have to either use a lower DPS spell or waiste your other knockback when they get in close in order to use your TK throw. It's pretty balanced. It actually makes you play very differently from normal to do anything unless you just ignore the knockbacks and attakc like normal between debuff timers.

Also if you use the 10s debuff and allow it to refresh it will only give 1 or 2 more at most depending on play. Because you will then run into resolve potentially. it just has to be designed to give maximum play along with the debuff timer.

This knockback design mostly helps TK sages. Though you could make the knockback Max range of spell minus 5-10 meters. Then it would be universally useful. And strong. And why shouldn't masters of force use be hard to kill. It's not like it necessarily damage. It's more time which can be circumvented by DPS. Which most other classes have a hefty amount of.

Lets say you did the range minus 10m as a pushback with different timers per range ammount. You would push back 20m on TKthrow and have to kite them in for extra. Then you use disturbance for a 25m which considering how much movement you get in 1.5 seconds(or less if not procced) would then probly be 20-15m before the spell started. If you change around the potentials for the debuff and resolve I'm sure a good design could be made. Hopefully whatever one is most fun to play for everyone.

-Sirus-'s Avatar


-Sirus-
01.10.2013 , 02:06 PM | #6
I'm pretty sure I just read all 1500+ words of your reply to learn that you don't use Force Wave and/or don't take the Force Wake talent in the skill tree. I strongly urge you to take a fresh look at your existing options before suggesting new ones.

Allegos's Avatar


Allegos
01.10.2013 , 04:57 PM | #7
As someone who gave up playing melee in PvE because of Consular and Inquisitor teammates in PUGs, count me against giving out any more knockbacks.
"The Nerfbat is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those FOTMs who transform into the Force. Mourn them do not. Miss them do not. Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed that is."

BossDuane's Avatar


BossDuane
01.10.2013 , 08:42 PM | #8
I don't know if anyone suggested this yet, but how about allowing force wave to counter force leap? I mean, that makes perfect sense in the star wars universe right?

Aital's Avatar


Aital
01.15.2013 , 02:50 PM | #9
I came up with another idea on how to distrubute it.

I say give the Knockback to TKthrow added to "Telekinetic Effusion" and the knockback to Disturbance and Telekinetic Waves to "Presence of Mind" or "Telekinetic Balance" skills in each tree. Then it can be distributed per each tree or gained for hybrids.