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MM Sniper DPS Rotation (PVE)


_Darkstar's Avatar


_Darkstar
01.07.2013 , 11:28 AM | #1
I am new to Sniper's (Level 25 so far) so forgive me if I am wrong about any powers because I am taking my numbers from Torhead rather than experience. I have been looking at attack chains and can't really find much aside from Noxxic's rotation which doesn't seem right to me.

They have:
1.Shatter Shot (If debuff needed) > 2.Takedown + Followthrough > 3.Ambush + Followthrough > 4.Snipe + Followthrough > 5.Series of Shots > 6.Corrosive Dart > 7.Orbital Strike > 8.Explosive Probe > 9.Rifle Shot (For energy regen only)

Which got me thinking that using this rotation will never see anything below Snipe get used, aside from Rifle Shot when regaining energy, because Snipe has no cooldown.

Ignoring Corrosive Dark and Explosive probe can't be good.

There are likely to be things that I am not taking into account but I was looking at:
1.Shatter Shot (If debuff needed) > 2.Takedown + Followthrough > 3.Corrosive Dart (Keep DoT ticking) > 4.Explosive Probe > 5.Ambush (With Reactive Shot buff) + Followthrough > 6.Snipe + Followthrough > 7.Rifle Shot (For energy regen only)

This leaves out Series of Shots (A power that I have yet to use) which doesn't really make sense because it is on a cooldown, so should really be better than Snipe, which I feel is the attack we need to use when we have energy to spare, but nothing else to cast.

I assume that Torhead has the damage numbers wrong somewhere along the lines? In which case can anyone point to a proper rotation/priority list with some numbers/explanations? Some proper damage numbers would do, I don't mind working chains out myself.

My other question is regarding Sniper Volley: Is it worth dropping in order to find room for Interrogation Probe from the Engineering tree (Also losing 3% crit from Lethality)? I have never been a fan of cooldown clickies and never will be.
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!

Upbyfiveam's Avatar


Upbyfiveam
01.07.2013 , 01:00 PM | #2
heres the thing, what you have there is more of a priority list then a rotation because then if it was a rotation you would have a problem with snipe/ambush/takedown all having to use followthrough. its pretty much saying if x is on cooldown just go down the list however i would put corrosive dart to always be up on the enemy

and also personaly i say its not worth losing sniper volly simply because series of shots is the attack that does the most dmg in my rotation and grants 50% energy regen and 10% alacrity and put that with a stim and you get 1.2 snipes/ambush
Scratchyy lvl 55 sniper / Itchyy lvl 50 sorc healer / Rykem Lvl 55 merc healer

Tibbel's Avatar


Tibbel
01.07.2013 , 06:48 PM | #3
The Noxxic sniper guide is heavily lacking. Most of the information within it is either oversimplified or flat-out incorrect.

A couple of examples:
  • It recommends 330 accuracy rating to get to +10%, despite its recommended spec already including 3% from skill points.
  • It talks about surge and crit rating decreasing above certain points, which suggests some kind of soft cap. Of course, a soft cap does not exist for either of these stats, and their value (especially for crit) depend on more than just your current rating.
  • It still has surge stackable up toward +50%, which hasn't been possible since before patch 1.1.3.
  • It lists Corrosive Dart ahead of Orbital Strike on the ability priority list. Wrong-o. We should absolutely prioritize OS over CD when we have the opportunity to hit with all 3 (or 4) OS ticks, or against multiple targets.
  • It doesn't talk about the importance of utilizing Snap Shot in maintaining the rotation while moving.
  • It only talks about the WHY for one single suggestion (using Laze Target even if Snipe is not our next ability). Beyond that, there's no discussion about how the conclusions in the guide have been reached, meaning someone who's relying on it might be left without the information needed to make situational adjustments.
But not that you asked about that, sorry.

Regarding the rotation, there are actually two types of rotations:

1. The "burst phase" rotation -- This is actually not a rotation at all, but instead a priority list of abilities ranked by DPCT ("damage per cast time" = Damage / {GCD for instants or activation time for non-instants}). During a burst phase, we are aiming to output as much damage in as little time as possible, without regard to energy costs. An important add needs to die, the boss is entering a period of extra vulnerability, or we're about to run off and stop attacking for a bit, for example. Another time for bursting is when Adrenaline Probe is available (or about to come off cooldown), and we can afford to drop low on energy before using AP so that we don't cap our energy during its effect. We usually can't burst for more than a short time before we must resume a sustainable rotation.

2. The sustainable rotation -- This is what we typically spend the most time doing during a fight. Since our sustained damage is limited by our energy availability, we use a rotation during these "regular" times that sustains our energy in the highest-regen bracket (60%+). During this time, we prioritize abilities based primarily on their DPE ("damage per energy"). As MM snipers, we have Followthrough, which has a DPE far higher than any of our other abilities. This leads to our prioritizing it highly during a sustained rotation, and since it has a short 6-second cooldown, we very naturally fall into a consistent cycle:
  • (3s of filler) - Ambush - FT
  • (3s of filler) - Snipe - FT
  • (3s of filler) - Snipe - FT
Naturally, Takedown should be used in place of Snipe whenever possible.
We use the 3 seconds of "filler" as time to prioritize other abilities by DPE -- generally, SoS > OS > CD > EP > Snipe -- however, keep in mind that any energy regeneration that is lost during that ability's usage (by hitting the cap or dropping into a lower bracket) should also count toward that ability's energy cost. What this means in practice is often one of the filler abilities in a cycle will be Rifle Shot and one will be either OS, CD, or Explosive Probe. Making the right choice for fillers is part of what helps us deal great DPS.

If you are interested in more details and discussion about the MM rotation, stats, abilities, etc, I recommend reading through the compendium linked in my signature.

_Darkstar's Avatar


_Darkstar
01.09.2013 , 04:34 AM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by Tibbel View Post
Stuff
Thank you! Just the type of thing I was looking for
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!

_Darkstar's Avatar


_Darkstar
01.14.2013 , 09:45 AM | #5
Forgive me if I didn't see this in your guide, but how is energy regenerated? Do we recover x per second? Or is it x per second but given in a lump every y seconds? If it is every y seconds does that get affected by being mid cast at the time?

I am trying to work out exact timings for a Burst > Probe > Rotation > Burst > Probe > Rotation and it probably differs depending on how natural regen occurs.
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!

Kelderek's Avatar


Kelderek
01.14.2013 , 12:53 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by _Darkstar View Post
Forgive me if I didn't see this in your guide, but how is energy regenerated? Do we recover x per second? Or is it x per second but given in a lump every y seconds? If it is every y seconds does that get affected by being mid cast at the time?

I am trying to work out exact timings for a Burst > Probe > Rotation > Burst > Probe > Rotation and it probably differs depending on how natural regen occurs.
It is in Tibbel's guide, see section II.3.1.A, there is a neat chart that shows regen rates accounting for your skill selections.

Energy regenerates over time at a rate that varies based on how much current energy you have. The lower your current energy, the slower the regen rate. This means that if you spend too much energy then it will take a much longer time to get it all back. If you look at the chart in Tibbel's guide, you will see that the top bracket is 60% energy and up, so as long as you don't drop below 60% of your energy then you will regen at the maximum possible rate.

Tibbel's Avatar


Tibbel
01.14.2013 , 05:39 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by _Darkstar View Post
Forgive me if I didn't see this in your guide, but how is energy regenerated? Do we recover x per second? Or is it x per second but given in a lump every y seconds? If it is every y seconds does that get affected by being mid cast at the time?
I'm actually not sure how often passive energy regeneration is added. In-game, the energy level appears to update on the UI once per second; however, this doesn't necessarily indicate that it's only regenerated once per second.

In the spreadsheet, energy regeneration is modeled as continuous, and for most purposes that approximation gives accurate results.

I don't see how the timing of casts would affect this. Abilities with an activation time deduct their cost immediately as the activation time ends. Conversely, channeled abilities deduct their energy cost immediately as the activation begins.

_Darkstar's Avatar


_Darkstar
01.15.2013 , 03:38 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Tibbel View Post
I'm actually not sure how often passive energy regeneration is added. In-game, the energy level appears to update on the UI once per second; however, this doesn't necessarily indicate that it's only regenerated once per second.

In the spreadsheet, energy regeneration is modeled as continuous, and for most purposes that approximation gives accurate results.
As long as it is at least once a second that is good enough for me, I have no idea how I missed the spreadsheet, given that I have read through and made notes from your guide 3 times now ... So I am heading to look now

Quote: Originally Posted by Tibbel View Post
I don't see how the timing of casts would affect this. Abilities with an activation time deduct their cost immediately as the activation time ends. Conversely, channeled abilities deduct their energy cost immediately as the activation begins.
What I was thinking, is that lets say you get energy back once per second, but during the time you were meant to get your energy back you were mid-Snipe it might cancel that regen or something funky so you only actually regen during CD's. But now I write that down it is a stupid idea, so it was a stupid question.
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!

Illusory_Enemy's Avatar


Illusory_Enemy
01.18.2013 , 03:58 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Tibbel View Post
... I recommend reading through the compendium linked in my signature.
Holy moly.. great work!
Quote: Originally Posted by Frammshamm View Post
If you want real combat go and hit a cop in the face with a baseball bat. MMO combat will always be about pushing buttons.
The Darkside may have cookies.. but the Lightside has donuts!!

Mugen_no_Jidai's Avatar


Mugen_no_Jidai
01.20.2013 , 04:31 PM | #10
I'd love to see some high parses from people who are successful with markesman. I leveled with the spec and love it, but just trying out lethality (full and leth/mm hybrid), it's far easier to put up huge numbers, even with a spec that I'm still not entirely familiar. I can find tons of lethality/hybrid parses (including the new super in-depth post at the top of the page), but few parses/videos for MM players.