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How much HP for endgame content?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Roles > Tanking
How much HP for endgame content?

wadecounty's Avatar


wadecounty
01.07.2013 , 10:21 AM | #1
This is the question for me, although I know it differs from tank to tank somewhat. How much HP should you be shooting for, for endgame content (Nightmare Denova basically)?

I want to know at what point I can strictly focus on mitigation. Is it 24k? 25k? 27k? Right now I have a hybrid Guardian in almost full 63's with 34% defense, 46% shield and 47% absorbption, along with 24.5k HP. If 26k is where I want to be, I could probably sacrifice 1% absorb and 1% defense to get there, but do I need 26k?

Aerilas's Avatar


Aerilas
01.07.2013 , 10:53 AM | #2
i'm all for mitigation myself, but i WOULD go for at least 26k...
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Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
01.07.2013 , 10:57 AM | #3
For all 8 man content, 24-25k hp is more than enough. For 16m content, you want ~27k hp to account for the increased damage. Anything more than that is largely wasted.

Of course, this assumes that you've got good healers that know when to preheal for burst phases rather than waiting until you've dropped to 10% hp before throwing a heal on you while you're tanking Kephess. If you've got healers with bad reaction times, you're going to need more hp to account for it. If you're not sure whether you've got enough hp or not, just ask your healers. A reasonably cogent healer is going to be able to tell whether the tank is short on mitigation (taking too much damage overall) or simply doesn't have enough hp (dropping really low before they're able to be picked back up).
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wadecounty's Avatar


wadecounty
01.07.2013 , 11:10 AM | #4
Thanks for the response Kitru.

I'd follow with this... as a Guardian tank, do you think it'd be better to swap out a couple of enhancements for the extra Endurance, along with using the high Endurance Hazmat implants? I hate the idea of lettered mods because threat is so difficult with Guardian tanks.

If I use 2 Vigilance Enhancements and the Hazmat high Endurance implants over my current BH mitigation ones, I'd sacrifice 8 shield, 32 absorption and 8 strength for 64 endurance, with my current setup. That would raise me from 24.5 to 25.1 HP, and I still have a 63 armoring I can replace a 61 with (40 more HP) and I can swap out my Might hilt for a Guardian hilt when it is learned (120 HP).

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
01.07.2013 , 11:13 AM | #5
The hardest-hitting repeated damage in the game comes from the Pulsar Droids in Nightmare EC. There, you're seeing a 13.3k (unmitigated) hit once every 5 seconds or so. Assuming terrible RNG, that means both healers need to be sustaining 1.3k HPS to prop you up for the next hit. Since there's essentially nothing else to heal during this phase, I'm not sure this is a valid case.

A more interesting case is something like Toth & Zorn, where you can get hit pretty hard (8k jump ftw) and that hit coincides with a moment when the healer may have to abandon you for a period of time due to knockback or having to heal something else. Even still, Toth hits like a wet blanket between jumps, so it's unlikely to be a problem.

Let's go with a different scenario: tanking Kephess pre-60%. You get the bleed and your co-tank taunts of you. They take a BOATLOAD of damage. Let's assume for the moment that the healers can only spare about 300 HPS for you (which is roughly equivalent to a HoT from both healers). The bleed ticks 5 times for about 7k, once every 3 seconds. That's 35k damage in 16 seconds, or 2.18k DPS. Subtract the 300 HPS and we get 1.88k DPS. Assuming you're topped off before this starts, you would need 30.2k HP to survive. That's doable, but only by sacrificing a lot of mitigation.

The assumption we have to make is that the healers will be able to spend more time on you than just 300 HPS. Unfortunately, this is really a question of your *co-tank's* mitigation, not yours. If he's stacking endurance, then he will take a lot more damage from Kephess and will require extra healing. Due to that need for extra healing, the healers won't be able to spend time on you and the bleed will be a straight subtraction from your HP. It sets up this unfortunate Nash Equilibrium, where both tanks have to be itemized in the same way.

My co-tank is mitigation stacking (as am I), and looking at my logs, the healers appeared to be doing around 500-800 HPS on me during the bleed (though this is a hard statistic to parse out for a single phase of the fight). That means the bleed will eat 22k out of my total health pool. So, that's the amount of endurance I need to ensure I have, plus a 4k-ish buffer around that. So, 26-28k?

It's very very situational though. I don't (at present) have a really good model which predicts the exact minimum HP required for any given piece of content. It just varies too much depending on your co-tank, your healers, and how much stupid your DPS feel like standing in.

As a healer, I *vastly* prefer healing tanks who stack mitigation. With that said, there are times when I appreciate the large health pool. (e.g. when I have to cross heal on paired bosses and step out of range/LoS of the tank for which I am responsible) It's situational.

The one observation I *can* make is that assassin/shadow tanks benefit inordinately from endurance due to the way it enhances the self-heal. If you're in Dread Guard gear and you want to minimize the amount of external healing you require, the magic value is 28.3k HP. I wouldn't go that high for another type of tank (25-26k seems more than ample), but 28.3k is a really nice spot for an assassin/shadow tank in current BiS gear. Important to remember that the reason for this much HP is *not* to provide some sort of extra buffer, but to improve the self-heal. On a purely buffer basis, I'd say 25-26k would be more reasonable.
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wadecounty's Avatar


wadecounty
01.07.2013 , 11:43 AM | #6
Appreciate the responses guys. OK, I'm going to shoot for 25+ then I think.

EDIT: Last question for now... currently at 24.8k hp, if I trade out an EWH Defense relic for the Dread Guard absorb proc relic, that would bring me up to 25.3k hp at the expense of a little under 1.5% defense. Fair trade you think, especially considering the absorb proc relic is still helping my mitigation?

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Talonwk
01.07.2013 , 12:48 PM | #7
The sacrifice for more Hp is not as great as many would like you to believe. There are a few thing people forget to take into account.

Defensive stats suffer from multiple diminishing returns. The first one is just written into the calculation so each defense/shield/absorb rating increase is not as much as previous increases to those ratings.

Second Damage is on a 2 rolls system and multiplicative therefore increases in one actually devalues you other stats. For example if i increase defense then I am shielding less because it never even goes through and my armor shield rating and absorb is actually less valuable since it was not needed as much.

Another point is there is substantial damage that is not able to be mitigated at all and you can have all the defensive secondary stats you want but it will hit and do the same amount of damage no matter what. Toth and stormcaller are prime examples as is Kephess in HM TFB where 90% of his damage cant be avoided.

There is a happy medium somewhere of course. I personally feel that endurance and secondary stats are equally valuable so I add up endurance and tanking stats on each mod/enhancement and take the highest total and use those. For mods this is typically the "B" mods. From there I obviously optimize the tanking secondary stats to provide the optimal mitigation. Doing this for most tanks puts them at around 28.75k HP fully buffed and stimmed. For assassins you can further modify your augments towards endurance and the mitigation loss is offset slightly by increases to self healing and increase their time to survive even further.

TLDR: the sacrifices to mitigation are not as extreme as people think because of standard and inherent diminishing returns and boss damage types that are not mitigable. Endurance has no diminishing returns at all dramatically increases your time to survive over any other stat. Healers HPS is high enough compared to boss throughput that time to survive should be a focus (endurance).
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Kitru
01.07.2013 , 01:30 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Talonwk View Post
TLDR: the sacrifices to mitigation are not as extreme as people think because of standard and inherent diminishing returns and boss damage types that are not mitigable. Endurance has no diminishing returns at all dramatically increases your time to survive over any other stat. Healers HPS is high enough compared to boss throughput that time to survive should be a focus (endurance).
First off, everyone that tells you to stack mitigation stats already knows about diminishing returns. It's not something that escapes our notice. In fact, it's one of the biggest things that has to be considered. Of course, you're also vastly overstating the impact of diminishing returns since it all operates on percentage decreases to damage taken. A 1% increase in defense is worse less when you have the base 5% defense chance than when you have a 30% defense chance (the first is a 1.1% decrease in damage taken and the second is a 1.5% decrease in damage taken; it gets even *bigger* when you get to the higher numbers with Shield and Absorb where 1% more shield at 65% shield chance equates to a 2.9% decrease in unshielded attacks). Diminishing returns doesn't exist to encourage people to stack Endurance; it exists to offset the progressive improvements in performance based on decreasing percentages of incoming damage.

*Secondly*, it's been proven numerous times over that Endurance does *not*, in fact, dramatically increase your time-til-death, nor is time-til-death even a moderately useful method of comparing tank survivability. Even at the top tier of content, time-til-death in TOR is *exceptionally* high. Even with 25k hp, it's going to take in excess of 10 seconds without any healing for a tank to die. Once time-til-death is beyond the "healer noticed I'm taking damage" threshold (which should be *well* below 10 seconds, especially if you're doing progression content), time-til-death is pointless since, if your healers need longer than 10 seconds during high damage phases, they're doing something wrong (or you are because you're not burning a CD when you should be).

The *only* thing you've said that is even remotely true is that mitigation isn't useful against unmitigatable sources of damage, such as on Kephess the Undying where *so* much of his damage is F/T. Of course, you're overstating the important of it since that's the *only* fight where you actually have to worry about it: for everything beyond EV and KP, the ratio of M/R to F/T damage is so heavily in favor of M/R damage that it's largely a non-issue. If you have to worry about your survivability on T&Z or twin tanks, it's because your healers aren't up to snuff, not because you don't have enough hp: the tanks are the only ones taking appreciable damage during twin tanks (or should be) in predictable, non-bursty amounts.
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Darth_Dreselus's Avatar


Darth_Dreselus
01.07.2013 , 04:15 PM | #9
Short answer: Whatever you end up with using Tank armouring, non lettered mods and low endurance enhancements. If you really what higher HP get endurance augments but mitigation are better. Regardless of DR it is impossible to get into stupidly heavy DR with current gear available.

Doing all that, even with the mitigation augments you will end up cca 26k

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KeyboardNinja
01.07.2013 , 05:10 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Dreselus View Post
Mitigation tank - Force Armour, Rejuvenate, Healing Trance, Youtube
LOL That sounds familiar…
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