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Explain Overheal to me....

Segastorm's Avatar

01.04.2013 , 08:10 PM | #1
Hey, just uploaded my guild's second attempt at HM Zorn and Toth, and it did say I lost just over 100 HPS to overheal. Now, what exactly is overheal and how can I avoid it as a seer-sepcced sage? (For the curious, we never beat them, all the experienced people are doing NiM)

Here's the Parse if it helps explain

Khevar's Avatar

01.04.2013 , 09:35 PM | #2
Overheal is when you try to heal someone more than their max HP. E.g:

1. Someone has 20,000 hp max
2. He's taken some damage and is now at 15,000 hp.
3. You cast a Deliverance, and it hits for 6,000 hp.
4. 15,000 + 6,000 hp == 21,000 hp which is more than the max
5. You "overhealed" by 1,000 hp.

The idea is, that those heals are wasted.

Segastorm's Avatar

01.04.2013 , 10:57 PM | #3
so any ways to really avoid overhealing? Just parsed on another in RR and things were bad.....(it was on another healer, but I'd still like sage advice so I can improve my raiding capabilities)

Kitru's Avatar

01.05.2013 , 12:21 AM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by Segastorm View Post
so any ways to really avoid overhealing? Just parsed on another in RR and things were bad.....(it was on another healer, but I'd still like sage advice so I can improve my raiding capabilities)
Overhealing isn't a major issue. As long as you're not running out of resources and everyone is surviving the fight, you've done your job. Overhealing is going to happen regardless of what you do.
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Cleet_Xia's Avatar

01.05.2013 , 12:25 AM | #5
How to avoid overheal.....hmm... well.....aside from the obvious.. don't heal the healthy...

Most of your overheal is going to come from healthy players standing in a Salavation, or from landing a large crit with Deliverance or HT. You will also land overheals with your self heal, because you should be using it on CD as soon as you are injured enough to use it the first time. None of those are really hurting your resource efficiency, because those overheals are just a byproduct of the heal you intended to cast, and didn't cost any additional force. Some would say this isn't true, because you can expect to get a certain number of crits over the time frame of a boss fight. But you can't count those crits until you review the parse, so.... just call the crits what they are ~ extra. I say you should use the self heal on CD because the CD is the limiting factor - because there is no cost. So you want to keep it on CD as much as possible so you can boost resource efficiency, and eat the overheal by using Noble Sac before hand.

Now if you're casting Deliverance or HT on a player whose health is not yet low enough that 's a problem for your resource management. The small Hot could generate some overheal, but it's not enough to worry about. The same could be said about Restoration on a healthy player. Restoration could also be considered an overheal if you cleanse on a debuff that is about to expire, or one that is a tech effect it can't remove. But the sneakest overheal is casting bubble on a player who then never gets hit again before the bubble expires.

I try not to ever top everyone completely up with either Deliverance or HT.
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Draloch's Avatar

01.05.2013 , 12:37 AM | #6
Many fights you can predict when the heavy damage is going to happen and tailor your healing output to then.

When you know big damage is about to happen, you want to do everything you can to get the people who are taking that damage topped up. When it's a lull in the fight, you want to try to conserve resources. If someone is at 80% health, it's sometimes better to just throw your free heal and continue to regenerate force power, rather than throw a heal to top that person off.

My guild was having trouble with the final boss of TFB and I noticed that every time I got screamed by the boss (which drops the tanks health to about 25%), both healers would spam heals on me to top me off. Here's the thing, though: After I get screamed on, the other tank taunts the boss and I take a very small amount of damage for the next 30 seconds.

So, I instructed the healers not to heal the tank after scream goes off. Just put heal over times on that tank and then focus on the other tank and the rest of the raid. Sure it may be uncomfortable to see one of your 2 main tanks at 25% health, but he's really in no danger of dying. Better healing resource management was all we needed to get over the hump.

Darth_Dreselus's Avatar

01.05.2013 , 08:37 AM | #7
Most of that overheal was from Salvation (you have 2 DPS standing in it that don't need it most of the time). I get massive overheals on Phase 1 of TFB since most of my healing is just putting a Salvation down and Rej-HT tank because I'm lazy and since I stand in it I can just NS and keep force above 90% the whole time. On the other hand phase 2 is hardly any overheal, as it is all single target with pretty big hits. Some of my overheal also comes from Rej as I refresh it on full HP tanks for the armour increase, especially when I know that they are about to start getting hit.

From having you focus targeted during that run I would say you could heal more regardless of those overheals, for instance in the first 20s all healing done is Force Armour - Rejuvenate - Salvation - Rejuvenate, followed by a HT 5 seconds later which looks like this:

20:31:53.313 Segastorm activates Healing Trance.
20:31:53.314 Segastorm spends 36 .
20:31:53.314 Segastorm gains Resplendence.
20:31:53.317 Segastorm's Healing Trance critcally heals Slaterdude for 2075*!
20:31:53.318 Segastorm loses Conveyance.
20:31:54.434 Segastorm's Healing Trance heals Slaterdude for 1163.
20:31:55.346 Segastorm's Healing Trance heals Slaterdude for 1163.
20:31:55.894 Segastorm cancels Healing Trance.
20:31:55.895 Segastorm activates Noble Sacrifice.

I don't know if you had to move, had Slaterdude at full HP, had lag issues or simply made a honest mistake but it is best to let HT tick all 4 times as your are recharging force during the cast and healing as well. I can see further HTs with only 3 ticks further down the log.

I have also noticed that your general rotation is Rej-HT-Del, by doing this you are casting Deliverance at full cost which if avoided helps with resource management. There is a thread with an awesome explanation of resource management and the most efficient rotation:

Personally I do these 2 and only have problems with resource if **** hits the fan (like both DPS getting fearful or something silly like that):

a) If Salvation is used often (Like T&Z)
1660 HPS single target without Potency, will be running 1 stack of regen debuff (doesn't matter) and if you can also stand in the salvation (not on T&Z) you won't need to heal yourself, but otherwise FM takes care of it, will run out of Force if going full out but not before enrage.
b) No or little Salvation used
1600 HPS single target without Potency, will need to heal yourself (FM), will run out of Force if going full out but not before enrage.

As always with healing those are only general rotations and change based on what's going on. I didn't include bubble in the rotation because that's something that is just done when appropriate. As a rule of thumb if HT is off cd use it over a Deliverance and keep Conveyance up as much as possible.

two more things on that fight:
20:33:35.886 Toth's Cleave hits Segastorm for 2181 kinetic damage, causing 2181 threat. (2181 absorbed)
20:33:35.886 Toth's Cleave hits Segastorm for 2181 kinetic damage, causing 2181 threat. (2169 absorbed)
20:33:35.887 Toth's Cleave hits Segastorm for 2181 kinetic damage, causing 2181 threat.
20:33:37.053 Toth's Crush adds effect Stunned to Segastorm.
20:33:37.424 Toth's Crush hits Segastorm for 6815 kinetic damage, causing 6815 threat.
20:33:39.062 Toth's Crush effect of Stunned fades from Segastorm.

This simply means that you stood in front of the Toth's hitbox with the yellow circle, stand behind him and just clip him with the edge of it to avoid that damage.

2) You are also getting hit by Toth's Smash for 5-7k, there are two ways of avoiding/limiting this damage
i) Predict the jump and move beyond 30m from Toth (will likely lose range on tank temporarily)
ii) Keep Force Armour up, since this is pretty much the only damage you take from the fight (outside of the DoT during circle phase) it will be used up by the Smash and only hit you for like 1-3k - this is pretty much what I do on NiM because I wanna stay closer to Toth (the jump has a knockback on it in NiM)

Please think of this as constructive criticism and I am always available to help. For instance I can tell from the numbers that you need no help on gearing.
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