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Kill order is weak to strong


Tromador's Avatar


Tromador
01.09.2013 , 07:29 AM | #51
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
Would it be correct to say (as regards other MMOs):

1. When fighting a group of mobs there aren't a lot of weak ones.
2. The other mobs take a long time to kill.
Not necessarily, but the tank will normally be able to aggro the whole group, so it's often a case of focus on the big guy, but use AoE skills which take down the weaker ones without the bother of targetting them.

Quote:
3. If the dps tried attacking the other mobs, they would get overwhelmed and would die.
The DPS can often be weaker than the tank. In addition where there is range and melee DPS, it can cause the mobs to be running amok all over the place. This then makes it hard or impossible for the main tank to regain control of the group, puts additional strain on the healers, who must now heal multple targets and is far more likely to end in total disaster.

Quote:
4. It's easy for tanks to hold aggro on the entire group.
Pretty much.

With skills such as wither/slow time and discharge/force breach, I find assassin tanking to be most like what I am used to in other games. AoE aggro building skills that allow me to control all or most of a group.

[quote[5. So killing the one the tank is attacking will ensure that only the tank takes damage during the fight?[/QUOTE]

That's the idea and allows the healer to focus pretty much exclusively. Positioning for DPS is also important, attacking from behind to avoid frontal AoE and similar.

Tromador's Avatar


Tromador
01.09.2013 , 07:34 AM | #52
Quote: Originally Posted by Rosielink View Post
(which is another weird thing about this game, I don't seem to find a way to turn on targeting through someone else.)
Quote: Originally Posted by DataBeaver View Post
In key bindings, there's a binding for "acquire target's target". IIRC it's bound to alt-t by default.
Not quite the same thing as Rosielink meant. In other games it's possible to target through another target.

For example, you could be a healer and by targetting a mob, your heals would go to the mobs target (ideally the tank). This allows you to heal the tank, whilst DPSing the mob, without switching target.

Or, I am used to having a group assist target (raid assist or RAT). This player is normally a DPS character who decides upon which mob the DPS will be focussed. In other games this is easy, by targetting the RAT, one's DPS will automatically be redirected to the chosen target.

In this game we do seem to focus DPS (at least in the good groups I've seen), but it's more by consensus and watching what everyone else is doing, rather than by having a designated player and a game mechanic to achieve it.

slafko's Avatar


slafko
01.11.2013 , 07:02 AM | #53
Quote: Originally Posted by Furiel View Post
Humbug, everyone knows that the proper attack order for DPS is...
1) CCed targets
2) anything attacking you
3) anything attaking the other DPS
4) the next group
5) anything the healer is still attacking beacuse they can't kill it themselves because thy weren't smart enough to roll a DPS toon
6) anything the tank can't kill because they weren't smart enough to roll a DPS toon
Reading this on a forum is comedy gold. Having it in a flashpoint/op/heroic is a nightmare.

Killtastrophe's Avatar


Killtastrophe
01.11.2013 , 10:03 AM | #54
I have to agree, after tanking exclusively on 3 toons my DPS IQ has never been higher.

Leovinus's Avatar


Leovinus
01.11.2013 , 10:24 AM | #55
Quote: Originally Posted by bleidlein View Post
As a tank i have learned to adapt to these situations in pugs. I am a pt bounty hunter. First thing is to tell the group to mark targets. Jump to the toughest non cc'ed target and throw a single mob taunt on it. Then turn to the weakest target or healer target and pull them to me or just mosey on over to them while throwing attacks at them. As the gunslinger said, they can drop one of these in a couple hits. It may take me 2 or 3 more hits to drop them than a dps, but i can do it, so if i solo it then no big deal. then move to next toughest and so on till i get back to the strongest.

While doing this i am watching the healers health bar to make sure they didn't draw aggro on something and if their hp are going down then i will move to them mid fight to beat on their mob. If a dps has stayed on the elite i originally hit with a taunt then by the time he takes aggro by doing damage, I can get back to it and we can kill it off before he dies and/or my single target taunt will be refreshed and i can easily take back aggro.

This has been very effective lately and i have had virtually no issues.
Eh, sounds like you're a good tank, and I'd probably like to group with you in terms of that, but honestly, your job and the healers' jobs are much more adaptively difficult than the dps', so you shouldn't have to additionally adapt to the dps; the dps should really be adapting themselves to your style. Still, I thank you for not being an oblivious tank.

Petnil's Avatar


Petnil
01.11.2013 , 08:10 PM | #56
Quote: Originally Posted by mikebevo View Post
My main is a sawbones, my first alt is a infiltration shadow (terrible dps, but a total blast to play), however in HM FP more times than not I get complimented on my dps by the healer or the tank. I look at mox and I am doing around 1400, with burst of 2200. Not exactly great considering my gear, but I am killing mods in the right order and using my interrupts and defensive cooldowns and when I do hit one of the high burst that crits which could causes me to pull aggro, I will hit Force Cloak or a defensive cooldown if force cloak isn't up.

So even if you are very average dps, kill in the right order and people will think you are very good dps.
high dps has alot less to do with beeing a good dps as killing things in the right order and using all your abilyties.
high dps with tunnelvision is bad dps imo. IŽd take a tioneese geared dps who knows how to be a teamplayer over a dreadguard geared player with tunnelvission anytime anyday

PhantomMalice's Avatar


PhantomMalice
01.11.2013 , 08:22 PM | #57
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
Not having played any other MMOs (TOR is my first), I find this sort of thing surprising.

What would be the benefit of ignoring weaker mobs and having the DPS focus on the tanks main high-health target?

It would seem that even in other MMOs, a weak enemy is a) Still capably of doing damage to the party and b) Dies relatively quickly so why not kill them immediately?

Do killing the weak mobs give a buff to the elite mob (like a mini-enrage)? If you kill weak mobs do they respawn with more of them (herakles and the hydra)? Do every elite mob come with a tight enrage timer so any time dps'ing trash is bad?
Ok, there are a few fundamentals you need to understand when comparing SWTOR tanking with more "traditional" tanking styles that had been in MMO market for years.

1) In games like WoW, the only place you will encounter "Elite" mobs are in dungeons and raids. There are a few that wanders out in the open world, but they are generally World Bosses, Town/Outpost guards, or Special "Outdoor raid" areas similar to Heroic areas in SWTOR. The Elite mobs will have decorated portrait frame, just like SWTOR.

2) In other MMOs, there are typically 2 types of "Elite" mobs: "Dungeon Trash mobs" and "Bosses". Rarely in a dungeon (Flash Points) will you find regular mobs in games like WoW. Important thing to note here is that all Trash mobs in other MMOs have generally universal HP pool, so there are no "weaker elites" or "stronger elites" in terms of HP. To put it in SWTOR terms, imagine every mob in a FP is an Elite class, walking around with 40k+ HP.

3) The most important concept you must also grasp is how the mobs are scaled in these games. In games like WoW, Elite mobs are designed in the way that only Tanks who are spec'ed and geared correctly are able to survive their attacks. No ifs, ands or buts. If you pull threat as a DPS or healer in those games, you generally will get 1 shotted, unless you are using defensive CD or if you are wearing heavy armor and such. In those case, you might get 2-3 shotted. Bottom line: If you pull threat, you will die very, very fast. So in those games, the core mechanic is designed around the Tank being the sole focal point of incoming damage, who in turn will stack mitigation/avoidance stats through the roof to survive the onslaught. This, of course leave very little "offensive" stats for Tanks, hence in games like WoW all tanks are automatically given 500% threat increase for ALL their attacks as long as they are in Tank stances.

4) Other main difference is how the resources are different in SWTOR and other traditional MMOs. In traditional MMOs, typically all healers uses a resource called "Mana" or some variation of it. They are like Force bar of Sages/Sorcers, except they can be increased from gear, rather than fixed at 600. Also the way which Mana regens works very differently compared to SWTOR. So even though healers can walk around featuring 300k+ Mana points, they WILL eventually run out if they are forced to divert their resources over multiple targets. So in a game like WoW, if you pull threat as a DPS, not only you are putting yourself in danger, you are wasting precious resources from the healer who then has to worry about you and healing the Tank.

So from the above points, you will see how the difference in fundamentals will get veterans from older generations of MMOs confused about how the roles of Tanks and DPS operates in SWTOR; because unlike in SWTOR, in those games there are no mobs in Dungeons (FPs) or raids (OPs) which a single DPS can 1-2 shot normally.

tanktest's Avatar


tanktest
01.12.2013 , 11:38 AM | #58
Quote: Originally Posted by PhantomMalice View Post
Ok, there are a few fundamentals you need to understand when comparing SWTOR tanking with more "traditional" tanking styles that had been in MMO market for years.

1) In games like WoW, the only place you will encounter "Elite" mobs are in dungeons and raids. There are a few that wanders out in the open world, but they are generally World Bosses, Town/Outpost guards, or Special "Outdoor raid" areas similar to Heroic areas in SWTOR. The Elite mobs will have decorated portrait frame, just like SWTOR.

2) In other MMOs, there are typically 2 types of "Elite" mobs: "Dungeon Trash mobs" and "Bosses". Rarely in a dungeon (Flash Points) will you find regular mobs in games like WoW. Important thing to note here is that all Trash mobs in other MMOs have generally universal HP pool, so there are no "weaker elites" or "stronger elites" in terms of HP. To put it in SWTOR terms, imagine every mob in a FP is an Elite class, walking around with 40k+ HP.

3) The most important concept you must also grasp is how the mobs are scaled in these games. In games like WoW, Elite mobs are designed in the way that only Tanks who are spec'ed and geared correctly are able to survive their attacks. No ifs, ands or buts. If you pull threat as a DPS or healer in those games, you generally will get 1 shotted, unless you are using defensive CD or if you are wearing heavy armor and such. In those case, you might get 2-3 shotted. Bottom line: If you pull threat, you will die very, very fast. So in those games, the core mechanic is designed around the Tank being the sole focal point of incoming damage, who in turn will stack mitigation/avoidance stats through the roof to survive the onslaught. This, of course leave very little "offensive" stats for Tanks, hence in games like WoW all tanks are automatically given 500% threat increase for ALL their attacks as long as they are in Tank stances.

4) Other main difference is how the resources are different in SWTOR and other traditional MMOs. In traditional MMOs, typically all healers uses a resource called "Mana" or some variation of it. They are like Force bar of Sages/Sorcers, except they can be increased from gear, rather than fixed at 600. Also the way which Mana regens works very differently compared to SWTOR. So even though healers can walk around featuring 300k+ Mana points, they WILL eventually run out if they are forced to divert their resources over multiple targets. So in a game like WoW, if you pull threat as a DPS, not only you are putting yourself in danger, you are wasting precious resources from the healer who then has to worry about you and healing the Tank.

So from the above points, you will see how the difference in fundamentals will get veterans from older generations of MMOs confused about how the roles of Tanks and DPS operates in SWTOR; because unlike in SWTOR, in those games there are no mobs in Dungeons (FPs) or raids (OPs) which a single DPS can 1-2 shot normally.

To add wouldn't the kill order depend on how well geared the group is , and in most ops or HM I run we kill as we see it unless its a boss , unlike SWTOR thrash pull are some what weak to wow thrash mobs , which in some cases were harder then the bosses was and had to be killed in a boss like way ,, thrash should be just what it is thrash , have no real kill order if the group is geared for it ...IMO .... be able to kill it fast like we can in SWTOR but that How I see it ...

tanktest's Avatar


tanktest
01.12.2013 , 11:52 AM | #59
Quote: Originally Posted by wadecounty View Post
Why can nobody seem to grasp this?

Yes, you can get through your average hard mode without following a kill order, but guess what, it just means more stress on your tanks/healers.... you know, the ones who had to enter group finder for your queue to actually pop?

And then those tanks/healers get tired of having to work extra hard to babysit braindead DPS, and stop queueing altogether, or only queue with guildies.

So please please please, respect the kill order. Its literally no extra work for a DPS, and it makes life far easier on your tanks and healers.
I disagree I love it when they all do there own thing makes healing for me more fun and more of something to look forward to . ... but you prolly think I'm Out of mind , but to that I'm a beast healer .... WC these kinda of things ,but it all depends on how well geared the group is and how good they are . IF the group is under geared go slow use CC etc and kill order and al way no matter what on any boss fight unless the DPS is plan awesome follow a kill order , ...