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I do not agree with the inclusion of SGRs.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion > Suggestion Box
I do not agree with the inclusion of SGRs.
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

Wittand's Avatar

01.11.2013 , 10:51 PM | #451
Quote: Originally Posted by -IceHawk- View Post
Bioware has already stated it was not going to alter current companions to include SGRA options a number of times if I am not mistaken, so for the time being absence of direct evidence that this is going to happen reduces this to little more than wishful thinking.
You are mistaken on this front. BioWare never stated which companions will be available for SGRAs.

While Mr. Rieds statement:
Same gender romances with companion characters in Star Wars: The Old Republic will be a post-launch feature. Because The Old Republic is an MMO, the game will live on through content expansions which allow us to include content and features that could not be included at launch, including the addition of more companion characters who will have additional romance options.
can be viewed as saying that SGRAs will come with new companions. It does not state that they will come exclusively with new companions.

Mr Hickman wrote in the last state of the game:
I realize that we promised SGR to you guys and that many of you believed that this would be with a companion character. Unfortunately, this will take a lot more work than we realized at the time and it (like some other pieces of content we talked about earlier in the year) has been delayed as we focused on the changes required to take the game Free-to-Play. As we have said in the past, allowing same gender romance is something we are very supportive of.
Note how he uses the term will not would.

Additionally Mr. Hood wrote on twitter:
Angela ‏@margitan
@hallhood Any chance of some day revisiting species recognition in quests for things like this: … I admit it is funny.
@margitan That's one of my many points of pain in our current game. When those lines were written playing Chiss wasn't an option. Sigh.
@hallhood Oh, I bet. Were Chiss added as playable pretty late, or just didn't think they'd ever be on the Repub side?
@margitan Both! If we had known in advance, I'm sure Jennifer would have written an alternate joke involving Ugnaughts.
@hallhood Haha, interesting. Thanks for the insight. Is revising it even a possibility?

@margitan It is possible--and on the to-do list.
Lent ‏@biancapatzelt
@hallhood One more thing, any chance of Corso Riggs becoming available as an SGR option?... would really, really endorse that.
@biancapatzelt So noted. ;-)
@hallhood In case that ever happens, I'd like to suggest lifetime subscriptions to go along. )

Also can you please explain why the 100.000+ views of the APAC thread are more than the 300.000+ views of the SGRA thread. Because you might have found a new kind of number theory here because according to my maths the SGRA thread has more than three times as many views.

markcymru's Avatar

01.11.2013 , 11:12 PM | #452
Quote: Originally Posted by -IceHawk- View Post
It is not petitio principii simply because you disagree with the premise.
No, but a valid argument cannot depend on the form of the words. In effect, you’ve left out a premise: viz ‘core’ means PvP etc etc.
When instead ‘core’ means ‘what makes the game playable enjoyably for markcymru’, your argument comes out like this: Considering how well the game works, does anyone really expect Bioware to spend massive amounts etc etc [to which the answer would be “Yeah, of course”].
Your argument comes out as: Considering how badly the game handles the things I treasure, does anyone really expect BioWare to spend massive amounts etc etc.
By framing the features that you treasure as ‘core’, or shall we say ‘fundamental’, you make your conclusion apparently inescapable. If you had described them simply as ‘the features I treasure’, your argument wouldn’t really stand up – it would simply be you saying ‘I want BioWare to spend their money on what I want’.

Quote: Originally Posted by -IceHawk- View Post
I offer as evidence the innumerable threads dominating the more travelled forums (General and PVP) demonstrating a clear concern on the part of the player-base concerning PVP-Balance and Bug Fix/Optimization cycles.

In the aftermath of 1.2 the PVP forums have essentially exploded, with concerns over balance reaching a new zenith with the confluence of Rage-Spec Marauders and Backlash-Barrier Sorcerers more recently.
You will recognize at once that no inference can be drawn about relative numbers of pro-PvPers vs. Pro-SGRers in the player-base from relative numbers/activity in the forum [I'm trying to keep my syntax manageable by using an easy-to-remember tag for the two sides]. I mention this because for a true debate to take place, there has to be some way of agreeing on the premises.

We all know…
All men are mortal
Socrates is a man
Therefore Socrates is mortal.

Just as valid as an argument, though, is…
All men have immortal souls
Socrates is a man
Therefore Socrates has an immortal soul.

Willingness to accept either one of these arguments depends on one's willingness to accept the first premises.
You [IceHawk] can make arguments based on ‘small minority’ ‘minuscule proportion’ etc and they might have all kinds of logical validity, but unless you can provide some justification for your premises your arguments have as much or as little weight as the ‘immortal souls’ argument above would have to an atheist.
Quote: Originally Posted by -IceHawk- View Post
I highly doubt that mDPS or DPS Sorc/Mercs would support your contention that their particular Endgame core component is in anything but a broken state.
Probably true, but it seems to me that there’s always someone complaining about their class being nerfed, and if other posters in other threads are to be believed, trying to achieve class balance is a perpetual problem with all MMOs. So from my perspective, why should BioWare keep spending resources to fix an ‘unfixable’ problem for a minority of the playerbase [even if PvPers were most of the playerbase, which I dispute, the people complaining about their own class are a minority within that playerbase] when they could be fixing a real problem [need for new story content that includes SGRAs]
Quote: Originally Posted by -IceHawk- View Post
I would frankly be unsurprised if Bioware placed new companions, SGRA-capable or otherwise, on the Cartel Market at this point.
No argument here – BioWare may well do that. It would be a big mistake as far as I’m concerned, but that’s just my opinion.
Quote: Originally Posted by -IceHawk- View Post
That different segement you refer to is the overwhelming majority of the player-base. That is evident both in the superintending concern Bioware places on their satiation at every patch and new piece of content as well as the general dismissal threads such as this one have receievd.
But you could just as easily argue from that evidence the following:
Both player segments are the same size [or even that the ‘SGR’ segment is bigger], but the fix that one segment requires is easier to pull off quickly than the fix that the other segment requires. BioWare obviously chose to make one segment happier quickly rather than leave both segments unhappy for a long time. And being strapped for cash, that decision kept being made for months until finally enough pressure was brought on them to commit to providing SGRs, beginning with a gesture on Makeb.

Quote: Originally Posted by -IceHawk- View Post
Also, how are people who are dedicated to the story-mode of the game (presumably leveling alts) going to engage in that endeavor with SGRA unless Bioware develops class-specific SGRA-capable male and female companions?
You’re making the assumption that that’s the only way that would keep us Pro-SGRers happy. But it could be done differently. Here are some suggestions that have been made:

Quote: Originally Posted by -IceHawk- View Post
Which returns me to my original question.
If Bioware lacked the funding to extend class-specific missions in Makeb, what makes any of us think they are going to dedicate the time and resources to create class-specific SGRA companions that will fit the current 1-50?
Development on Makeb began a long time ago and was continuing while BioWare was going through what we all believe was a financial crisis. So they probably did what they could with the resources that they had – hence the Makeb that we’re going to get. That was then -- F2P has happened along the way, and it’s quite possible that the cash is rolling in [God knows I hope so ! ]. In that case a good move on BioWare’s part would be to re-invest that cash into providing as much new stuff as possible to keep as many segments as possible happy. And I expect one of them will be my segment… which I believe is a sizeable chunk of the base.
Quote: Originally Posted by -IceHawk- View Post
My argument has never once been that SGRA should not be included in the game.
That is the caricatured assumption individuals assume simply because I find the manner of the SGRA proponents' interactions with their opponents more than a little distasteful.
This is an interesting comment. Have you seen the way the anti-SGR crowd interacts [probably not... because the distasteful ones are quickly deleted and the posters suspended/banned]. How would you have characterized the ‘interaction’ of a poster, in a thread that was deleted today, who suggested that he would appreciate the option of dragging an ‘SGR’ character behind his pick-up truck?

Quote: Originally Posted by -IceHawk- View Post
This game did not lose a million subscriptions because SGRAs were not included and I doubt we will gain any net subscriptions if they ever are actually included.
We don’t know, do we? Maybe they lost a million subscriptions because the players found the whole concept of endgame boring – No story! No romances!
Who knows? To me, that scenario is just as plausible as the scenario that you imply: viz players finish the levelling, with its stories, and then want to do pointless PvP and PvE [pointless because it doesn’t lead anywhere other than cranking up your brownie point score] month in month out.

Quote: Originally Posted by -IceHawk- View Post
I would prefer Bioware spend its time and my money on firming up its principle three components of gameplay and move on to special interest group concerns such as SGRA, SSSP, Guild concerns, mini-games after a major PVP-Balance Patch, and Optimization Patch, and maybe a new look at crafting.

After that they should move on to including these extraneous pieces into the game, ideally in mini-content patches on a regular basis.

SGRA is not a priority to a vast majority of the player-base, nor should it be, I would argue, a priority to Bioware at this moment.
I’m not sure what the names of these informal fallacies of argumentation are, possibly ad populum, maybe ad hominem, possibly petitio [depending on your exact definition]. We keep seeing this type of thing – ‘pandering’, ‘agenda’, 'special interest group’, ‘vocal minority’ – where the opprobrium attached to these terms is intended to strengthen the argument. Quite often, as I’ve pointed out elsewhere, the argument deflates at once if you use more neutral terms [like ‘a certain proportion’ or 'a specific segment']
“The comments on any article about feminism justify feminism.” — Lewis's Law

jizerai's Avatar

01.12.2013 , 12:18 AM | #453
I'm not really sure how to respond to the OP. He (yes, I'm fairly certain it's a male) made no suggestion, he asked no question and he made no assertions.

So here goes: It's happening. Get used to it.
Quote: Originally Posted by battlebug View Post
can you make sword in box light sword so sword come out when opened? then if sword is back after sword, use light saber on box, and saber will be boxed after sword is out.

VicSkimmr's Avatar

01.12.2013 , 01:50 AM | #454
The theory that only a small percentage of players will utilize the SGR options is laughable at best. How many males play female characters in game? Lots. How many of them would turn down the option to have their female character make out with another female character? I'm guessing none.
Quote: Originally Posted by battlebug View Post
can you make sword in box light sword so sword come out when opened? then if sword is back after sword, use light saber on box, and saber will be boxed after sword is out.

Distracted's Avatar

01.12.2013 , 04:15 AM | #455
Quote: Originally Posted by darhsteel View Post
please dont focus on SGR,i know its gonna come,but put it on the back burner and focus on warzones,planets,flashpoints,and events!
It's been on the back burner for long enough.
Quote: Originally Posted by Notannos
Greetings Everyone,

We understand that players are currently pleasing dissatisfaction with the reward program for Game Update 1.2.

Lent_San's Avatar

01.12.2013 , 10:33 AM | #456
Quote: Originally Posted by -IceHawk- View Post
While SGRA and a host of other extraneous items would be great to see in the game Bioware needs to focus its largest efforts on maintaining and expanding its core components before addressing these specialized interests.
To make it short, no. Diversity is the way to go and not down the path the presumed "majority" suggests. WoW did that with Cataclysm and tanked horribly. Like, horribly. I think they lost 2 million subs afterwards.

See me leave, if what you suggest BW should do actually happens. There is no majority, just as there are no core components in game playing. All of us are minorities in the way we play a game differently and the sum of content makes a great game, not "core components" that are tweaked to the extreme.

You know nothing about what makes games successful, apparently.

CommunitySupport's Avatar

01.12.2013 , 10:40 AM | #457
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Caelrie's Avatar

01.12.2013 , 01:16 PM | #458
Quote: Originally Posted by -IceHawk- View Post
I would prefer Bioware spend its time and my money on firming up its principle three components of gameplay and move on to special interest group concerns such as SGRA, SSSP, Guild concerns, mini-games after a major PVP-Balance Patch, and Optimization Patch, and maybe a new look at crafting.
Bioware has been doing exactly that for about 7 years. It's time to let other people get some stuff too.

Altyrell's Avatar

01.12.2013 , 04:12 PM | #459
Quote: Originally Posted by Caelrie View Post
Bioware has been doing exactly that for about 7 years. It's time to let other people get some stuff too.
7 years?

Caelrie's Avatar

01.12.2013 , 08:14 PM | #460
Quote: Originally Posted by Altyrell View Post
7 years?
The game's been in development since what, 2005?