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Your take on The Sith Order and the Jedi Order!

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Your take on The Sith Order and the Jedi Order!

Surinen's Avatar


Surinen
01.05.2013 , 11:32 AM | #141
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Don't be silly Aurbere, his tenuous grasp of the English language and ignorant responses to my arguments obviously display his inability to read.
yes my english grammar is flawed, but your arguments are simply lacking rational base. like a child playing a savior
Aperture Science. We do what we must, because we can. For the good of all of us- Except the ones who are dead.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
01.05.2013 , 11:33 AM | #142
Quote: Originally Posted by Surinen View Post
well that is completely true, its writers thing and public demand

you wouldnt be able to show even one such example from real life history.

indeed, you should go and start reading more than school history txtbooks

also you very much like to use words evil and good - that is a sign of slave morality, you are very much fixiated on " we are good guys"
even your friend who disagrees with me uses a master morality "right" "wrong"
I really don't want to tell the stories of how my grandfather entered the Nazi gas chambers. So for my sake, please leave it alone.

The reason I point to those stories is because the Galactic Empire is based off of the Third Reich. And by extension, so is the Sith Empire (because they are based off of the Galactic Empire).
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Surinen's Avatar


Surinen
01.05.2013 , 11:42 AM | #143
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
I really don't want to tell the stories of how my grandfather entered the Nazi gas chambers. So for my sake, please leave it alone.

The reason I point to those stories is because the Galactic Empire is based off of the Third Reich. And by extension, so is the Sith Empire (because they are based off of the Galactic Empire).
I could not care less who entered what and with whom - I dont really know why you stated it; seeking pity or showing that your huge emotional attachement to it makes this subject difficult to you. Third Reich has nothing to do with Sith Empire beyond dark theme and nationalistic roots, in fact more species ones in this case. Militaristic theme also is similar and maybe uniforms a little little bit but whole way of how Third Reich operated is completely different from the Empire. There is no country in the real life similar to Sith Empire, there wasnt, well, was Rome Empire ( and even then similarity wasnt that big ), but it expired completely from different reasons. People assumed that Third Reich = Sith Empire simply because it was close time gap, it could be also Empire of Japan, China or one of many African Empires.

the sake of Sith Empire is what it is thanks to writers, Lucas, nothing more.
Aperture Science. We do what we must, because we can. For the good of all of us- Except the ones who are dead.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
01.05.2013 , 11:44 AM | #144
Quote: Originally Posted by Surinen View Post
I could not care less who entered what and with whom - I dont really know why you stated it; seeking pity or showing that your huge emotional attachement to it makes this subject difficult to you. Third Reich has nothing to do with Sith Empire beyond dark theme and nationalistic roots, in fact more species ones in this case. Militaristic theme also is similar and maybe uniforms a little little bit but whole way of how Third Reich operated is completely different from the Empire. There is no country in the real life similar to Sith Empire, there wasnt, well, was Rome Empire, but it expires completely from different reasons. People assumed that Third Reich = Sith Empire simply because it was close time gap, it could be also Empire of Japan, China or one of many African Empires.

the sake of Sith Empire is what it is thanks to writers, Lucas, nothing more.
Even though George Lucas came out and said Galactic Empire was based off of the Third Reich? Not to mention that the Sith Empire is almost exactly like the Galactic Empire.

I'll let you connect the dots.

Edit: You know what? Don't bother replying. I'm done with this topic. It's just turned into a political debate that I don't want to be apart of.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
01.05.2013 , 11:46 AM | #145
Quote: Originally Posted by Surinen View Post
I could not care less who entered what and with whom - I dont really know why you stated it; seeking pity or showing that your huge emotional attachement to it makes this subject difficult to you. Third Reich has nothing to do with Sith Empire beyond dark theme and nationalistic roots, in fact more species ones in this case. Militaristic theme also is similar and maybe uniforms a little little bit but whole way of how Third Reich operated is completely different from the Empire. There is no country in the real life similar to Sith Empire, there wasnt, well, was Rome Empire, but it expires completely from different reasons. People assumed that Third Reich = Sith Empire simply because it was close time gap, it could be also Empire of Japan, China or one of many African Empires.

the sake of Sith Empire is what it is thanks to writers, Lucas, nothing more.
You do realise that the Galactic Empire was inspired by the Nazi's right? But anyway if your so sure that you are right and by arguments are baseless, please address this:

Quote:
Your ignorance baffles me. How you could possibly think Darth Plagueis (ironically a Sith Lord and former master of the Emperor) is a simpleton I have no idea. And how you can possibly think that building a huge massive super-weapon that blows up planets is a good thing baffles me also. Its just a big fat blob that screams "blow me up, I represent all the repression, oppression, waste of resources and evil of the Empire" and what happened? It was blown sky high along with the rest of the inefficient Empire. You also obviously have a very inflated and misguided view of the capabilities of humans, when most of them are far less intelligent than the likes of the Gree, the Colicoids, the Muun and the Bothans (you for example). But that's OK as the Empire have learned the mistakes they've made in the past and are actually attempting to put aside their restrictive xenophobia and accept more aliens into their ranks - another step closer to enlightenment.

And for the record all Sith are power hungry. It's in the Sith Code: "through power I gain victory". Baras would be followed by a hundred other Sith and a hundred more. The Emperor's Wrath can put down as many of them as he likes. But that's not going to fill the vacuum is it? A vacuum that will eventually consume the Sith Empire entirely. Or the Republic will simply destroy them, they are after all losing the war.

You've also failed to tell me what the Galactic Empire did for the galaxy that was beneficial. That is because the answer is nothing. Nothing whatsoever, they didn't even bring peace. Turn your attention to the Galactic Civil War.

And finally, your hardly giving good publicity for the Empire. Your simply proving me right. That the Empire breeds selfish people who don't care about the lives or importance of others and are happy to go around killing people and committing mass genocide to maintain there own self-importance and power. But alas they are doomed to be toppled by the people they oppress and so will forever be heralded as how not to run a galaxy.


EDIT: This argument isn't about morality. Its not about what 'right' and what 'wrong', its not about who's 'good' and who's 'bad'. Its about what works and what doesn't, and the Galactic and Sith Empires don't work.

Surinen's Avatar


Surinen
01.05.2013 , 11:49 AM | #146
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Even though George Lucas came out and said Galactic Empire was based off of the Third Reich? Not to mention that the Sith Empire is almost exactly like the Galactic Empire.

I'll let you connect the dots.
just what I said, uniforms and theme, as it is among directors there is a huge possibility that Lucas was lacking knowledge about Reich and how it operated and of course he used that word because it gave it a proper attention "nazi nazi nazi" evil nazis and good people of democracy fighting tugezza. if he said that is based on Turkey, no one would probably care, except armenians or probably a hundred other examples. even Darth Vader helmet is somewhat similar to german but that is all.
Aperture Science. We do what we must, because we can. For the good of all of us- Except the ones who are dead.

Surinen's Avatar


Surinen
01.05.2013 , 11:53 AM | #147
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
You do realise that the Galactic Empire was inspired by the Nazi's right? But anyway if your so sure that you are right and by arguments are baseless, please address this:



EDIT: This argument isn't about morality. Its not about what 'right' and what 'wrong', its not about who's 'good' and who's 'bad'. Its about what works and what doesn't, and the Galactic and Sith Empires don't work.
and how long Empire lasted? from the beginning struggling with rebels. poor, hero writing nothing more, but yes, judging only by what is shown in the movies and what EU shows then Galactic Empire did nothing and was probably self sustaining evil machine that served only Emperor who wanted to kill everything.

only theme is a Third Reich, the way they were killing people is not actually similar and exclusive only to Germans

Sith Empire works quite well and should work that way in the future until some stupidity happens to justify movies
Bioware portrayed Empire pretty good
Aperture Science. We do what we must, because we can. For the good of all of us- Except the ones who are dead.

Maaruin's Avatar


Maaruin
01.05.2013 , 12:09 PM | #148
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Apologies for ignoring your posts Maaurin. But I felt the need to deal with this particularly stubborn Sith lover.
Yeah. If you want to hear something I would add to this topic:

I think democracy isn't that important. There have been plenty of good monarchies throughout Star Wars history (especially if they had Jedi advisors) and also good monarchies throughout RL history.

The important thing is that the government respects the rights of the individual: life, liberty, pursuit for happiness, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, impartial courts, protection from threats they can't deal with themselves etc.

The Empire (both Empires) couldn't provide that. (Remember that through its first years the Galactic Empire was still kind of a democracy.)

Sith are opposed to individual rights. They think the individual has to earn this rights by becoming powerful enough to enforce them himself.

Quote:
First let me say that yes the Jedi do prevent wars and protect the Republic from the Sith. But they don't learn. Like Einstein said:

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
I'd say they do learn, but they aren't quick learners. They tried a different approach during the First Schism than with Exar Kun.

Quote:
The Jedi keep responding to the Sith threat with a lightsaber, drive them back and enjoy peace again. Then the Sith inevitably return and they do the exact same thing, expecting different results. This is wrong, the Jedi need to adapt, change. Reconcile themselves with the Sith to put a real stop to the war. Yes it may not be completely successful but it's better than doing nothing at the expense of innocent lives.
I'm all or reconcilation with the Sith. Here are some things I think the Jedi Order could do:

1. Don't try to integrate every Force sensitive into the order. Offer them some basic training (so they can control their powers) and let them decide later if they want to join the order or life their life on their own. Of course they have to obey the law and stuff and also swear to respect certain rules (i.e. don't use mind trick to take advantage of others).
- Joing the Jedi Order was optional for a long period of time. Gav and Jori Daragon and also Nomi Sunrider chose not to join the Jedi Order until circumstances forced them. Even in TOR it is indicated several times that not all Force sensitives have to join.

2. Encourage Jedi who try to lead darksiders to the light side. Jedi like Tol Braga, the Master who trained the Nekghouls on Taris, Luke in RotJ show how it can be done.

3. Don't try to extract Sith who join the light side from their Order. Instead, encourage them to start light side movements in their order. Or even grey Sith who want a more moderate Sith Order.

4. Allow the research of more emotional uses of the Force, if they aren't really dark side. (=if they don't fuel themselves with hatered, anger, fear in unhealthy degrees)


I know this is not canon, but sometimes I pretend to believe that the chosen one has still to come and will be the one who lead the Sith Order to the light.

Quote:
And on the topic of the Force:

"Too much light or dark would be the undoing of life as you understand it." ~ Father

The Father is not wrong here as you suggested. Yes he loves his children and wants to accept and protect them both but his words do ring true. Several things support it:

[*]The Ones are descendants of the Celestials (the Father was a Celestial), ancient beings of incredible knowledge and power. Powerful enough to 'control' the Force. They keep the Force in balance between light and dark and affect its will. The Ones therefore know more about the Force and its will than any other being. The Father's word on the Force is equivalent to George Lucas' word on Star Wars.
I'm not sure. For example in physics, there are often several possible states of balance in a system. The system will often try to find the balanced state closest to its current state.
50% light and 50% darkness might be one balanced state, but if the Sith would conquer the galaxy and destroy every light side organization, the Force might shift to a balanced state of 20% light and 80% darkness or something like that.

So the Father wants to protect the balanced state which is the best compromise for his children, but not necessarily for the entire galaxy.

Quote:
[*]This is a fictional material remember, why would the writers, guided by George Lucas himself, have made the Father say this if it wasn't true?
Because different writers have different ideas. In the game, the Sith Warrior and Bounty Hunter story show the Jedi Order much differently form the Jedi stories. So different and unfavorable, that I would say these stories are wrong about the Jedi/give the wrong image about them.

Or, even more obvious, Traviss Mandalorians vs TCW Mandalorians.

Quote:
[*]The Prophecy of the Chosen One said that a being of light would dispel the darkness and so bring 'balance to the Force'. This is a means by which the Force restored the balance. With the destruction of the Jedi there was too much darkness in the galaxy (years before, Sidious and Plagueis had already shifted the Force to the dark side in a ritual) and the Chosen One restored the balance by reintroducing the light.
The Prophecy is a strange thing in general. I would like to hear who wrote it and when and what it says. The things we know can be interpreted in very different ways.

Quote:
[*]The Je'daii Order had to keep balance between light and dark on Tython. Too much light or dark would disrupt the climate and cause violent storms on the planet and destruction.
True, but if you consider my theory about different possible states of balance, that does mean that the state the Je'daii tried to achieve was actually quite instable. In TOE, there are no Force Storms on Tython anymore, even though the Je'daii wouldn't consider the Jedi Order there balanced.

Quote:
[*]The Force Wars began when the Je'daii decided to pursue the light, causing by the will of the Force the followers of Bogan to emerge and pursue the dark. (Or the other way round it doesn't matter) It was the Force's way of redressing the balance. The Force Wars still however caused imbalance, and rendered Tython inhospitable.
As I said, I think this sells Rajivari and the other Masters short. They all brought good arguments for abandoning balance and devote the new Order to the light side or dark side.
From what we know from Dawn of the Jedi, it's actually quite likely that Rajivari developed his dark side principles based on the experience that the Je'daii balance didn't prepare them for the Rakata attack.

Quote:
[*]Kreia preached the 'Insidious Force' because she recognized that the Force is indifferent to its users and only seeks to maintain balance in the Force at the cost of innocent lives.
I never thought I would agree with Kreia one day. But if the Force is really that obsessed with balance for balance's sake, screw the will of the Force. Peace and justice are more important than balance.

[QUOTE][*]In the history of the galaxy darkness and light have always existed, never just one.

[QUOTE]

Yes, but that doesn't mean both are good for the galaxy.

Quote:
Both light and dark are needed in the galaxy, the battle between Jedi and Sith is a form of redressing this balance. If the Je'daii Order embrace light and dark, this balance would be perpetual and there would be no war between Jedi and Sith any longer. As long as the Je'daii didn't seek to pursue the light or dark and remained committed to their ideals. Yes some may stray from the path, they did before. But the Je'daii can deal with them in the same way. Through meditation (if they returned to Tython they could send them to the moons).
But that wouldn't allow for Jedi like Master Arca, Nomi Sunrider, the Exile, Tol Braga, Syo Bakarn, Yoda etc. The non-Force sensitives of the galaxy would loose much of what the Jedi did.
"I was one of many. We were servants of the dark side… Sith Lords, we called ourselves. So proud. In the end we were not so proud. We hid… hid from those we had betrayed. We fell… and I knew it would be so."
-Ajunta Pall

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
01.05.2013 , 12:16 PM | #149
Quote: Originally Posted by Surinen View Post
just what I said, uniforms and theme, as it is among directors there is a huge possibility that Lucas was lacking knowledge about Reich and how it operated and of course he used that word because it gave it a proper attention "nazi nazi nazi" evil nazis and good people of democracy fighting tugezza. if he said that is based on Turkey, no one would probably care, except armenians or probably a hundred other examples. even Darth Vader helmet is somewhat similar to german but that is all.
Wrong:

  • The Galactic Empire is xenophobic, which is akin to the Nazi's anti-semitism and general belief about the Aryan race.

  • The Galactic Empire put heavily stress on military might, as did the Nazi's who promised a strong navy and a strong military once they came into power - playing off the German's nationalist pride.

  • The Galactic Empire employed fear to keep its people inline and established authoritarian government over its its planets, they were ruled by military governors and policed by stormtroopers. The Nazi's ruled in a similar manner, setting up a system of regional governors just like the Galactic Empire did, and having the SS and the SA patrol the streets to maintain order. They were even referred to as 'stromtroopers'.

  • The Galactic Empire established a personality cult around the Emperor, who ruled with absolute power. The Nazi's established a personality cult of similar design around Adolf Hitler, who ruled in the same way.

  • The Galactic Empire established COMPNOR to maintain support for the Galactic Empire. This included organizing mass rallies and youth organisations. The Nazi regime used mass rallies to create feelings of mass hysteria in support of them, and established Nazi Youth to convert the young to their cause.

  • The Galactic Empire established a form of secret police called the Imperial Security Bureau, much like the Nazi's did, in order to remove political opponents and keep order.

  • The Galactic Empire advocated mass murder and genocide to further its goals and maintain 'order', such as the destruction of Alderaan. The Nazi's did the same e.g. the Holocaust.

  • The colours of the Galactic Empire, red, black and white are the same as those colours in the Nazi Flag.

  • Palpatine promised an Empire that would last for a thousand years, Hitler promised a 'thousand year reich'

  • Palpatine's rise to power is very similar to Hitler's rise to power, they both progressed to power democratically, claimed the current system was corrupt and reformed it into an authoritarian state.

I could go on, but it is obvious that the Galactic Empire is a mirror image of Nazi Germany. And the Sith Empire is very similar. They are xenophobic, put heavy stress on military might, employed fear, ruled by military governors, had a nationalistic image and a personality cult, had a secret police (imperial intelligence), the Sith Empire's colours were red and black. So if you support the Galactic & Sith Empire, you by default support the Nazi's. Think on that.

(And as long as the Sith remain in control of the Sith Empire, it is doomed to fail - that is the nature of the Sith)

Surinen's Avatar


Surinen
01.05.2013 , 12:46 PM | #150
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Wrong:

  • The Galactic Empire is xenophobic, which is akin to the Nazi's anti-semitism and general belief about the Aryan race.

  • The Galactic Empire put heavily stress on military might, as did the Nazi's who promised a strong navy and a strong military once they came into power - playing off the German's nationalist pride.

  • The Galactic Empire employed fear to keep its people inline and established authoritarian government over its its planets, they were ruled by military governors and policed by stormtroopers. The Nazi's ruled in a similar manner, setting up a system of regional governors just like the Galactic Empire did, and having the SS and the SA patrol the streets to maintain order. They were even referred to as 'stromtroopers'.

  • The Galactic Empire established a personality cult around the Emperor, who ruled with absolute power. The Nazi's established a personality cult of similar design around Adolf Hitler, who ruled in the same way.

  • The Galactic Empire established COMPNOR to maintain support for the Galactic Empire. This included organizing mass rallies and youth organisations. The Nazi regime used mass rallies to create feelings of mass hysteria in support of them, and established Nazi Youth to convert the young to their cause.

  • The Galactic Empire established a form of secret police called the Imperial Security Bureau, much like the Nazi's did, in order to remove political opponents and keep order.

  • The Galactic Empire advocated mass murder and genocide to further its goals and maintain 'order', such as the destruction of Alderaan. The Nazi's did the same e.g. the Holocaust.

  • The colours of the Galactic Empire, red, black and white are the same as those colours in the Nazi Flag.

  • Palpatine promised an Empire that would last for a thousand years, Hitler promised a 'thousand year reich'

  • Palpatine's rise to power is very similar to Hitler's rise to power, they both progressed to power democratically, claimed the current system was corrupt and reformed it into an authoritarian state.

I could go on, but it is obvious that the Galactic Empire is a mirror image of Nazi Germany. And the Sith Empire is very similar. They are xenophobic, put heavy stress on military might, employed fear, ruled by military governors, had a nationalistic image and a personality cult, had a secret police (imperial intelligence), the Sith Empire's colours were red and black. So if you support the Galactic & Sith Empire, you by default support the Nazi's. Think on that.

(And as long as the Sith remain in control of the Sith Empire, it is doomed to fail - that is the nature of the Sith)
most of the things you pointed out are similar/the same to countries before Third Reich and to those that were functioning during reign of the Third Reich, with exception for 1k reich and colour scheme - and everything thqat just for better sales. Nothing really more original about it,

whole shortcut "nazi" is wrong and by all means ( but of course I like very much war machinery of the Reich, one of the most beautiful uniforms and tank models ) I do not support socialism in any form, if Sith Empire was socialistic then I would probably be completely uniterested in story. Other points you mentioned are completely fine and required for a strong, advancing country that seeks to further it borders. Sith Empire does not trust outsiders and all kind of aliens which is natural and fine ( it is not inside extermination based on ethnicity and relligion ).. You all like real life examples, but by that example you should mention that people of the Reich were happy with its course ah and Third Reich wasnt militaristic, if you look closer, its a myth. There wasnt also, what will be probably shocking to you antisemitism - there was anti-talmudic behaviour, but many of those things are currently forgotten and changed to sate those who like one sided history. and by all means I dont think that WW II origins or its aftermath are exactly place for this forums. but it is a huge exxageration to say that Sith Empire = Third Reich
Aperture Science. We do what we must, because we can. For the good of all of us- Except the ones who are dead.