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Your take on The Sith Order and the Jedi Order!

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Your take on The Sith Order and the Jedi Order!

Surinen's Avatar


Surinen
01.05.2013 , 06:48 AM | #111
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
"Happiness is the meaning and the purpose of life, the whole aim and end of human existence.” ~ Aristotle, one of the founding figures of western philosophy,

The purpose of life is not procreation, or 'survival of the fittest' - they are means to an end, not ends in themselves. If so then we are no better than animals and this discussion is pointless. Procreation is a means of which we bring life into the world, so that we can achieve happiness. 'Survival of the fittest', while being unnecessary in a civilised world, is also a means of achieving happiness. So that begs the question, to what end is progress achieving? It should be achieving the happiness of all peoples everywhere. But in the Galactic Empire, ruled over by a Sith Lord, has all its 'progress' centralised on military might. What's 2000 Imperial Star Destroyers going to do for the people? Well so far one SD flattened a whole bunch of protestors on Coruscant so murder and mayhem is one product. Oh, and then there's the Death Star that blew up an entire planet for a measly bit of information. Progress, yeah. Quintillions of credits were put into the imperial war machine when they could have been better spent elsewhere. In fact everything was dominated by military, even science. Any science that did not further military progress was rejected and repressed. You call that progress? I call that idiocy.

And you talk about the Galactic Empire creating 'great minds' and 'great people'. Please, name a few? Grand Moff Tarkin? The Imperial Moff that blew up an entire planet and controlled a populace through fear? Emperor Palpatine? The man who created a monster responsible for countless deaths and untold destruction? Not exactly achievements, not exactly great. And if we draw away from all the 'great' military leaders, then what do we have. Nobody. Because through a combination of repression and censorship the Galactic Empire and all authoritarian states to date destroyed any chance of independent thought. All 'great minds' were brain washed into blind servitude, and shielded from knowledge lest it cause disruption of 'progress'. There were no great people in the Galactic Empire, other than military leaders and monsters, because great people cause 'trouble'.

And then there's the other product. Fear. Yes fear is a part of ever day lives but when fear overwhelms all other things, and drives people into blind obedience, then it becomes dangerous and undesirable. The fear created by the Empire impeded on happiness. And no, the citizens of the Empire were not happy, they were oppressed. You just didn't hear about it because all that was censored by a corrupt and authoritarian government. What's more the Empire's xenophobic nature meant aliens were all but rejected by society. More unhappy people.

And what does that mean? Rebellion. The Galactic Empire was flawed from the very beginning, for by repressing peoples freedoms through fear, it was doomed to be torn apart by rebellion and revolt. Something that would rarely happen in the Republic, and never successfully. Just take a look at the numbers, the Galactic Republic stood for over 25 thousand years. The Galactic Empire stood for just over 20, and that's including the period in which it was collapsing. Now you'll probably argue that that's because Star Wars favours 'democracy' over authoritarian rule. Which is true, but in comparison to the real world, its just the same. Most authoritarian governments have failed, or been so far distorted that they are no longer what they used to be. For example: the Roman Empire, the British Empire, Nazi Germany, the USSR, just to name a few. Democracy however, has lasted. Who is currently the most powerful and influential country in the world? The USA, a 'democracy'.

Basically the Empire wouldn't be so bad if its 'progress' achieved something meaningful and useful to human existence. But it didn't it just churned out oppression, repression, fear, unhappiness, xenophobia, censorship, mass genocide and military power. We don't want that. We want democracy.
funny that you quote Aristotle, the man who opposed democracy

murder and mayhem is a neccesary tool for expansion, and Emperor knew that military power will protect his subjects from outside threat
what are planets to and billions of meaningless lives that conspired with rebells.

they were happy, why wouldnt they be, if they were a loyal subjects to the empire then why would they fear it, completely irrational. well, aliens, only of you consider them people you can say that they were unhappy. Empire cared for its humans, and that is fair enough for me. and of course that Empire did a great job by silencing those rebellious mongrels who would cry about everything. censorship is sometimes neccessary for the sake of greater good. country power comes from military power firstly, there can be no peace without supremacy. also theres a need to think about what people protested, if they wanted democracy, have a voice in political matter, then they should be killed on the spot, dissolved and turned into ash with lightsabers, blasters or even boots. if they were hungry, then they should go to work. Empire is not a provider for food, country is to keep its subjects safe, not fill their cups and glasses, for that they have hands and heads to work. if the main argument is " we want to be free" then there is no argument in my opinion, it is simply a rabble. I highly doubt that they were unhappy with independent thoughts, I would say that they viewed open minds pretty well, scientists etc. if you mean by independent what I said, some democratic, freedomish idiotic ideas then Empire served them right. Galactic Empire was young and in the times they lived in, military power was more important than any other kind of research, priorities.

and we shouldnt discuss real life politics altho: roman empire expired due its lack of civilisation purpose and stagnant character. British Empire was built on third world countries sorrounded by stronger rivals. it was spread like a pox. then the next two, boht socialistic, well socialism is a backward way of humanity so that I wont even comment, no being that has adopted socialism will survive. Democracy is new, so it will last, as said, blinded people think they matter, whenether they are drained or not, they will think that they are free. and USA fathers tried to protect their country from democracy at all costs but then they failed in the end. also I would say China, Usa is just loud.

they were happy, no opressed, repressions of course were as they are needed for illegal actions. xenophobia of course, nothing bad comes from it, genocides, if neccessary then acceptable.

ah and I forgot: we are animals, humans are animals
Aperture Science. We do what we must, because we can. For the good of all of us- Except the ones who are dead.

Maaruin's Avatar


Maaruin
01.05.2013 , 07:03 AM | #112
Quote: Originally Posted by YeIIow View Post
we can agree to some extend... the last line however is more like:

The Je'daii were balance radicals and restricted the extend aproaching to either full lightside or full darkside.
ok, yeah, it can be said that way.



Quote:
sorry but with all the wars(almost all of the biggest ones) we have had as consecuence of the Jedi believe, of Light being better.... and the billions who have perished.... we can hardly say that : If the light side is better for everyone than the Je'daii's balance..... i mean once u think of it, it almost make u laught, don't u think? also who were the Jedi to claim the lightside was "better"? no-ones, just radicals blinded by their ideas of superiority.....
Actually, there were lots of wars the Jedi prevented. I once heard that before the Jedi started working as diplomats, there were three times as many wars. Remember that between the different Jedi-Sith wars there where extended periods of peace.


Quote:
Ok since my wookkipedia links and urs differ on the matte, lets get to an statement where both, ur saying and mine, can both be either right or wrong(or any variation of it) otherway this will go forever.... since our sources both proves us right to some degree...
how about this:

When the Je'daii were about to extend their influence beyond the Tython system, the developed different visions for their Order. Some wanted to devote themselves to the light side and use their influence to gain/preserve peace and justice throughout the galaxy. Others wanted to use the dark side to become a powerful political force. Both sides had, in theory, already abandoned the Je'daii ideal of balance when the Force Wars started.

(But, with our current sources it isn't quite clear who started the violence.)
"I was one of many. We were servants of the dark side… Sith Lords, we called ourselves. So proud. In the end we were not so proud. We hid… hid from those we had betrayed. We fell… and I knew it would be so."
-Ajunta Pall

YeIIow's Avatar


YeIIow
01.05.2013 , 07:31 AM | #113
Quote: Originally Posted by Maaruin View Post
Actually, there were lots of wars the Jedi prevented. I once heard that before the Jedi started working as diplomats, there were three times as many wars. Remember that between the different Jedi-Sith wars there where extended periods of peace.

they may have prevented many wars, true, but still, they were the cause of many others... one thing does not overshadows the other...
"Forged by Fire; Empowered by Passion"
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Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
01.05.2013 , 07:39 AM | #114
Quote: Originally Posted by Surinen View Post
funny that you quote Aristotle, the man who opposed democracy

murder and mayhem is a neccesary tool for expansion, and Emperor knew that military power will protect his subjects from outside threat
what are planets to and billions of meaningless lives that conspired with rebels.

they were happy, why wouldnt they be, if they were a loyal subjects to the empire then why would they fear it, completely irrational. well, aliens, only of you consider them people you can say that they were unhappy. Empire cared for its humans, and that is fair enough for me. and of course that Empire did a great job by silencing those rebellious mongrels who would cry about everything. censorship is sometimes neccessary for the sake of greater good. country power comes from military power firstly, there can be no peace without supremacy. also theres a need to think about what people protested, if they wanted democracy, have a voice in political matter, then they should be killed on the spot, dissolved and turned into ash with lightsabers, blasters or even boots. if they were hungry, then they should go to work. Empire is not a provider for food, country is to keep its subjects safe, not fill their cups and glasses, for that they have hands and heads to work. if the main argument is " we want to be free" then there is no argument in my opinion, it is simply a rabble. I highly doubt that they were unhappy with independent thoughts, I would say that they viewed open minds pretty well, scientists etc. if you mean by independent what I said, some democratic, freedomish idiotic ideas then Empire served them right. Galactic Empire was young and in the times they lived in, military power was more important than any other kind of research, priorities.

and we shouldnt discuss real life politics altho: roman empire expired due its lack of civilisation purpose and stagnant character. British Empire was built on third world countries sorrounded by stronger rivals. it was spread like a pox. then the next two, boht socialistic, well socialism is a backward way of humanity so that I wont even comment, no being that has adopted socialism will survive. Democracy is new, so it will last, as said, blinded people think they matter, whenether they are drained or not, they will think that they are free. and USA fathers tried to protect their country from democracy at all costs but then they failed in the end. also I would say China, Usa is just loud.

they were happy, no opressed, repressions of course were as they are needed for illegal actions. xenophobia of course, nothing bad comes from it, genocides, of neccessary then acceptable.
But they weren't happy and they weren't loyal. Just take a look at the celebration scenes at the end of Return of the Jedi, everyone despised him apart from the military. Fear kept everyone in line, nothing else. And what about the Nazi's? They were not socialist, they feigned socialism to garner support. The Nazi's are almost a mirror image of the Empire, so how come they failed? Because the rest of the world wouldn't stand by as they expanded their territory and slaughtered millions. The only reasons China is still around is because they had yet to exert and expand their military might, but once they do they will fall like Nazi Germany did.

What outside threats? What outside threats could possibly challenge the might of the Empire, if they had half the military power they had the Empire would still be well protected. The size of the Imperial Military was ridiculous and unnecessary, they were never truly threatened by external threats so all those credits went to waste. And how can you possibly support the rejection of all sciences other than those that progress military power? The rejection of everything that does not progress military power. Its one thing to say we need to protect our citizens, but its another to say we need to put all our resources into doing it. You say murder and mayhem are necessary for expansion and the protection of its citizens, and yet the murder and mayhem was directed at its citizens. Highly counter-intuitive. And it seems to me that the purpose of the Imperial military was not to protect its civilians, but to keep its civilians in line, because its civilians hated the government. Because it was a corrupt, mass murdering, insane dictatorial government headed by a Sith Lord.

And no, they were not happy with independent thought. See the 'Coalition for Progress' AKA the repressive fist of the Galactic Empire:

Art: Considered the most despised group within Progress by most citizens of the Empire, the Art group reported on the various art forms throughout the galaxy and passed judgment on the art in order to ensure the art stayed in line with the ideals of the New Order.

Unable to express themselves through art and culture in any way that did not praise or idolize the Galactic Empire: repression of independent thought.

Science: COMPNOR placed pressure on the scentists to focus on military programs, and while the Imperial Security Bureau kept a close eye on the Science group, COMPNOR took few reprisals against the scientists who continued to do basic research rather than weapons programs.

Unable to pursue fields of science that did not further military progress: repression of independent thought.

Education: They were given the mandate to homogenize the level of education throughout the Empire and to place emphasis on the values directed by the New Order. Education gathers data on individual worlds and informs the governor of that world how to transform their educational system to better conform with the dictates of the New Order.

Brainwashed through the education system to think one way: repression of independent thought.

You call this progress? I call it regression. And if you disagree, please name some of these 'great' people that the Empire helped to flourish. Other than military leaders you will find their are none. Because they were in fact repressed, not accepted.

This was not going to change, this would never change. The exultation of military power was ingrained into the very heart of the Empire, and other fields of progress would never ever be accepted.

What the Galactic Empire created was an endless cycle of stagnancy. They claimed to be increasing military power to protect their people, and introducing a military state to keep them 'happy'. But the people of the Empire were not happy, the xenophobic ideals of the Empire for one meant that a majority of the galaxy's population were repressed as humans were the minority species compared to aliens as a whole. And military power was designed to repress these people. So we have a big Empire of unhappy people, and a iron fist being supplied with quintillions of credits keeping those unhappy people in line. Nothing progresses because those unhappy people are forced to do nothing but support that iron fist so it can greater repress them. An unending cycle of repression.

And no, murder and mayhem is never acceptable for 'the greater good' (not that it was for the greater good, it was for the purposes of repression) Mass genocide can never be justified, period. People don't have the authority to decide who's lives are more important than others. Because we are self-centered, biased and short sighted. For example, what your entire family and all your friends were killed and the entire 100 mile radius around your house was destroyed. Merely as a display of force, they were all perfectly law-abiding, authoritarian loving citizens. Then they captured you and tortured you for information? Would you be happy, no you would not, because your view of who is important and significant is different to there's.

Surinen's Avatar


Surinen
01.05.2013 , 08:09 AM | #115
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
But they weren't happy and they weren't loyal. Just take a look at the celebration scenes at the end of Return of the Jedi, everyone despised him apart from the military. Fear kept everyone in line, nothing else. And what about the Nazi's? They were not socialist, they feigned socialism to garner support. The Nazi's are almost a mirror image of the Empire, so how come they failed? Because the rest of the world wouldn't stand by as they expanded their territory and slaughtered millions. The only reasons China is still around is because they had yet to exert and expand their military might, but once they do they will fall like Nazi Germany did.

What outside threats? What outside threats could possibly challenge the might of the Empire, if they had half the military power they had the Empire would still be well protected. The size of the Imperial Military was ridiculous and unnecessary, they were never truly threatened by external threats so all those credits went to waste. And how can you possibly support the rejection of all sciences other than those that progress military power? The rejection of everything that does not progress military power. Its one thing to say we need to protect our citizens, but its another to say we need to put all our resources into doing it. You say murder and mayhem are necessary for expansion and the protection of its citizens, and yet the murder and mayhem was directed at its citizens. Highly counter-intuitive. And it seems to me that the purpose of the Imperial military was not to protect its civilians, but to keep its civilians in line, because its civilians hated the government. Because it was a corrupt, mass murdering, insane dictatorial government headed by a Sith Lord.

And no, they were not happy with independent thought. See the 'Coalition for Progress' AKA the repressive fist of the Galactic Empire:

Art: Considered the most despised group within Progress by most citizens of the Empire, the Art group reported on the various art forms throughout the galaxy and passed judgment on the art in order to ensure the art stayed in line with the ideals of the New Order.

Unable to express themselves through art and culture in any way that did not praise or idolize the Galactic Empire: repression of independent thought.

Science: COMPNOR placed pressure on the scentists to focus on military programs, and while the Imperial Security Bureau kept a close eye on the Science group, COMPNOR took few reprisals against the scientists who continued to do basic research rather than weapons programs.

Unable to pursue fields of science that did not further military progress: repression of independent thought.

Education: They were given the mandate to homogenize the level of education throughout the Empire and to place emphasis on the values directed by the New Order. Education gathers data on individual worlds and informs the governor of that world how to transform their educational system to better conform with the dictates of the New Order.

Brainwashed through the education system to think one way: repression of independent thought.

You call this progress? I call it regression. And if you disagree, please name some of these 'great' people that the Empire helped to flourish. Other than military leaders you will find their are none. Because they were in fact repressed, not accepted.

This was not going to change, this would never change. The exultation of military power was ingrained into the very heart of the Empire, and other fields of progress would never ever be accepted.

What the Galactic Empire created was an endless cycle of stagnancy. They claimed to be increasing military power to protect their people, and introducing a military state to keep them 'happy'. But the people of the Empire were not happy, the xenophobic ideals of the Empire for one meant that a majority of the galaxy's population were repressed as humans were the minority species compared to aliens as a whole. And military power was designed to repress these people. So we have a big Empire of unhappy people, and a iron fist being supplied with quintillions of credits keeping those unhappy people in line. Nothing progresses because those unhappy people are forced to do nothing but support that iron fist so it can greater repress them. An unending cycle of repression.

And no, murder and mayhem is never acceptable for 'the greater good' (not that it was for the greater good, it was for the purposes of repression) Mass genocide can never be justified, period. People don't have the authority to decide who's lives are more important than others. Because we are self-centered, biased and short sighted. For example, what your entire family and all your friends were killed and the entire 100 mile radius around your house was destroyed. Merely as a display of force, they were all perfectly law-abiding, authoritarian loving citizens. Then they captured you and tortured you for information? Would you be happy, no you would not, because your view of who is important and significant is different to there's.
Third Reich was a socialist country from A to Z. What gave them support was the Nationalism and crysis and real socialism management. why they failed? because that was their purpose so the certain country in the middle east could appear after a war and that democracy would be established - perfect example Imperial Japan and how it turned to be quite a militaristic before war and what happend after. it is all conspiracy for establishing democracy. most of wars are just a banker tricks and power phases.

yet many years later Yuzhanscarfaces attacked, there is no limit to military power in the galaxy and spectrum of war between gazillions of planets especially if you try to operate mainly with human population.

they were happy, just because some unimportant artistic minoroti wanted to draw useless things, it doesnt change much. most of the people were happy and because some disturbed ndividuals had problem, nothing to worry.

of course we have right to obliterate whoever we want and we can justify however we want. any kind of life has its value, sometimes it starts with hunger, other time from a new blaster need. law is to regulate this but life per se can be taken anytime for anything and everything. people have all the authority in the world,
that is not how to display power, Empire would target a village full of rebels instead of law abiding citizens of the empire, possibly those artists who made useless piece of junk while there were needed symbols for the rising Empire. they wouldnt torture anyone they knew that he is completely useless for their information purpose, but if they had a solid info that someone may know something about rebels, then of course it is justified. and how I would feel in an abstract situation where they strike for no reason near my settlement? I would probably be angry for some time, but not exactly at the Empire but because I got bad luck and if my family would die because some people were hiding rebels with them then I would turn on rebels not Empire.

Galactic Empire was progressive, especially for human kind, they escaped weakness of the republic

and of course there non in Galactic Empire, because that period is fully dedicated to democracy so why would take create great architects for many projects - but even those military guys are quite a geniuses, death star etc., I dont even like that era with all its conflicts - personally I prefer Swtor's Sith Empire
Aperture Science. We do what we must, because we can. For the good of all of us- Except the ones who are dead.

Maaruin's Avatar


Maaruin
01.05.2013 , 08:20 AM | #116
Quote: Originally Posted by YeIIow View Post
they may have prevented many wars, true, but still, they were the cause of many others... one thing does not overshadows the other...
true. The Jedi Order is not infallible, they do make mistakes. (The First Great Schism is the example where we agree that the Jedi didn't do everything right.) But overall the Jedi had a positive influence on the galaxy most of the time.

Also, most wars between Force users were caused by darksiders. Not all of them, sure, but still the majority.
"I was one of many. We were servants of the dark side… Sith Lords, we called ourselves. So proud. In the end we were not so proud. We hid… hid from those we had betrayed. We fell… and I knew it would be so."
-Ajunta Pall

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
01.05.2013 , 09:03 AM | #117
Quote: Originally Posted by Surinen View Post
Third Reich was a socialist country from A to Z. What gave them support was the Nationalism and crysis and real socialism management. why they failed? because that was their purpose so the certain country in the middle east could appear after a war and that democracy would be established - perfect example Imperial Japan and how it turned to be quite a militaristic before war and what happend after. it is all conspiracy for establishing democracy. most of wars are just a banker tricks and power phases.

yet many years later Yuzhanscarfaces attacked, there is no limit to military power in the galaxy and spectrum of war between gazillions of planets especially if you try to operate mainly with human population.

they were happy, just because some unimportant artistic minoroti wanted to draw useless things, it doesnt change much. most of the people were happy and because some disturbed ndividuals had problem, nothing to worry.

of course we have right to obliterate whoever we want and we can justify however we want. any kind of life has its value, sometimes it starts with hunger, other time from a new blaster need. law is to regulate this but life per se can be taken anytime for anything and everything. people have all the authority in the world,
that is not how to display power, Empire would target a village full of rebels instead of law abiding citizens of the empire, possibly those artists who made useless piece of junk while there were needed symbols for the rising Empire. they wouldnt torture anyone they knew that he is completely useless for their information purpose, but if they had a solid info that someone may know something about rebels, then of course it is justified. and how I would feel in an abstract situation where they strike for no reason near my settlement? I would probably be angry for some time, but not exactly at the Empire but because I got bad luck and if my family would die because some people were hiding rebels with them then I would turn on rebels not Empire.

Galactic Empire was progressive, especially for human kind, they escaped weakness of the republic

and of course there non in Galactic Empire, because that period is fully dedicated to democracy so why would take create great architects for many projects - but even those military guys are quite a geniuses, death star etc., I dont even like that era with all its conflicts - personally I prefer Swtor's Sith Empire
You seem to be going round in circles. You keep saying progress, but what did that progress achieve? What were the results of creating a massive military force to keep its people repressed? I see none.

And I repeat, the people of the Empire were not happy. Where is your evidence to support this? Here's mine. Everyone in that scene seems unusually happy that their leader is dead, which marked the decline and dissolution of the Empire. Please explain why. (I guess they were all disturbed.)

And the Empire did attack law-abiding citizens. Alderaan was not a rebel base, so why was it destroyed? As a show of power, those completely innocent lives were extinguished at the whim of an evil Empire. How can that be justified? In what universe is that a good thing? It what universe is depriving people of their freedom of thought and repressing them through military might a good thing? Not to mention xenophobia, the Empire may have benefited a few humans, but it repressed countless aliens, how can that be justified? Nor have you justified the repression of all other sciences other than those that help the military. Yes the Vong but lets face it that is a poorly regarded EU creation, the real, original reason was to keep people in line through fear.

You seem to be seceding that their were no 'great minds' in the Galactic Empire. But seem to be saying that the 'backlash' of the Galactic Republic's democracy prevented 'great minds' from flourishing. Despite the Empire existing for 20 years. How does democracy repress 'great minds'? Are you saying that no brilliant minds ever existed in democratic countries? Only authoritarian ones? That's utter nonsense. How do you think they invented the hyperdrive, or united the systems in a single body? And yes Tarkin was a clever man (the Death Star however was invented by Geonosians :P) but his talents were wasted on blowing up planets and expanding Imperial Military. As were all other great minds. It had nothing to do with a 'democratic backlash'. Its the fault of the Empire's own obsession with military power, which achieves nothing.

And finally, the Sith Empire is no better. Worse even. The only reason its citizens are 'happy' is because of a massive personality cult centered around a figure who wants to destroy the entire galaxy. A personality cult which brain washes them and subtly represses them, leaving no room for individual thought and therefore no room for real progress in anything other than the fields of military. And anyone who becomes disillusioned with the cult, or those the Empire conquers, are repressed and trodden on. And their xenophobic, which is not only inefficient but repressive and unjustifiably unfair. Then there's the problem of centralizing all the power in a small number of individuals, who arguably don't have the peoples interests in mind, only their own. Some may make their people happy, and achieve good progress. But most will be corrupted and languish in their power, causing nothing but stagnancy and suffering.

What's more it was ruled over by Sith Lords who not only ruled by fear and violence, but doomed their own Empire to failure due to internal struggles. The Sith Empire will lose the war because they are too busy fighting amongst each other to fight their enemy. That's even worse than the corrupt elements of the Republic. And what happens when the Emperor dies? Their cult of personality collapses, the other Sith Lords swarm to fill the vacuum, and the Empire has nothing to drive it forward, or keep its people in line. Basically, Empire's don't last. Democracy's do
.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
01.05.2013 , 09:31 AM | #118
Apologies for ignoring your posts Maaurin. But I felt the need to deal with this particularly stubborn Sith lover.

First let me say that yes the Jedi do prevent wars and protect the Republic from the Sith. But they don't learn. Like Einstein said:

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

The Jedi keep responding to the Sith threat with a lightsaber, drive them back and enjoy peace again. Then the Sith inevitably return and they do the exact same thing, expecting different results. This is wrong, the Jedi need to adapt, change. Reconcile themselves with the Sith to put a real stop to the war. Yes it may not be completely successful but it's better than doing nothing at the expense of innocent lives.

And on the topic of the Force:

"Too much light or dark would be the undoing of life as you understand it." ~ Father

The Father is not wrong here as you suggested. Yes he loves his children and wants to accept and protect them both but his words do ring true. Several things support it:

  • The Ones are descendants of the Celestials (the Father was a Celestial), ancient beings of incredible knowledge and power. Powerful enough to 'control' the Force. They keep the Force in balance between light and dark and affect its will. The Ones therefore know more about the Force and its will than any other being. The Father's word on the Force is equivalent to George Lucas' word on Star Wars.

  • This is a fictional material remember, why would the writers, guided by George Lucas himself, have made the Father say this if it wasn't true?

  • The Prophecy of the Chosen One said that a being of light would dispel the darkness and so bring 'balance to the Force'. This is a means by which the Force restored the balance. With the destruction of the Jedi there was too much darkness in the galaxy (years before, Sidious and Plagueis had already shifted the Force to the dark side in a ritual) and the Chosen One restored the balance by reintroducing the light.

  • The Je'daii Order had to keep balance between light and dark on Tython. Too much light or dark would disrupt the climate and cause violent storms on the planet and destruction.

  • The Force Wars began when the Je'daii decided to pursue the light, causing by the will of the Force the followers of Bogan to emerge and pursue the dark. (Or the other way round it doesn't matter) It was the Force's way of redressing the balance. The Force Wars still however caused imbalance, and rendered Tython inhospitable.

  • Kreia preached the 'Insidious Force' because she recognized that the Force is indifferent to its users and only seeks to maintain balance in the Force at the cost of innocent lives.

  • In the history of the galaxy darkness and light have always existed, never just one.

Both light and dark are needed in the galaxy, the battle between Jedi and Sith is a form of redressing this balance. If the Je'daii Order embrace light and dark, this balance would be perpetual and there would be no war between Jedi and Sith any longer. As long as the Je'daii didn't seek to pursue the light or dark and remained committed to their ideals. Yes some may stray from the path, they did before. But the Je'daii can deal with them in the same way. Through meditation (if they returned to Tython they could send them to the moons).

Surinen's Avatar


Surinen
01.05.2013 , 09:35 AM | #119
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
You seem to be going round in circles. You keep saying progress, but what did that progress achieve? What were the results of creating a massive military force to keep its people repressed? I see none.

And I repeat, the people of the Empire were not happy. Where is your evidence to support this? Here's mine. Everyone in that scene seems unusually happy that their leader is dead, which marked the decline and dissolution of the Empire. Please explain why. (I guess they were all disturbed.)

And the Empire did attack law-abiding citizens. Alderaan was not a rebel base, so why was it destroyed? As a show of power, those completely innocent lives were extinguished at the whim of an evil Empire. How can that be justified? In what universe is that a good thing? It what universe is depriving people of their freedom of thought and repressing them through military might a good thing? Not to mention xenophobia, the Empire may have benefited a few humans, but it repressed countless aliens, how can that be justified? Nor have you justified the repression of all other sciences other than those that help the military. Yes the Vong but lets face it that is a poorly regarded EU creation, the real, original reason was to keep people in line through fear.

You seem to be seceding that their were no 'great minds' in the Galactic Empire. But seem to be saying that the 'backlash' of the Galactic Republic's democracy prevented 'great minds' from flourishing. Despite the Empire existing for 20 years. How does democracy repress 'great minds'? Are you saying that no brilliant minds ever existed in democratic countries? Only authoritarian ones? That's utter nonsense. How do you think they invented the hyperdrive, or united the systems in a single body? And yes Tarkin was a clever man (the Death Star however was invented by Geonosians :P) but his talents were wasted on blowing up planets and expanding Imperial Military. As were all other great minds. It had nothing to do with a 'democratic backlash'. Its the fault of the Empire's own obsession with military power, which achieves nothing.

And finally, the Sith Empire is no better. Worse even. The only reason its citizens are 'happy' is because of a massive personality cult centered around a figure who wants to destroy the entire galaxy. A personality cult which brain washes them and subtly represses them, leaving no room for individual thought and therefore no room for real progress in anything other than the fields of military. And anyone who becomes disillusioned with the cult, or those the Empire conquers, are repressed and trodden on. And their xenophobic, which is not only inefficient but repressive and unjustifiably unfair. Then there's the problem of centralizing all the power in a small number of individuals, who arguably don't have the peoples interests in mind, only their own. Some may make their people happy, and achieve good progress. But most will be corrupted and languish in their power, causing nothing but stagnancy and suffering.

What's more it was ruled over by Sith Lords who not only ruled by fear and violence, but doomed their own Empire to failure due to internal struggles. The Sith Empire will lose the war because they are too busy fighting amongst each other to fight their enemy. That's even worse than the corrupt elements of the Republic. And what happens when the Emperor dies? Their cult of personality collapses, the other Sith Lords swarm to fill the vacuum, and the Empire has nothing to drive it forward, or keep its people in line. Basically, Empire's don't last. Democracy's do
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thats why I dislike this new jedi crazyiness. evil emperor died and people are jumping like lunatics, it is si disneyish. yes, all of them, disturbed, they lack only rainbow flags to make it more ridiculous.

results? protection
huge amount of guns is not that much fear striking, they could hold people in line in many other succesful ways and cheaper ones.

yes alderaan, but from what I remember, Palpatine was from Alderaan, I bet that he knew a lot of this planet and sisliked it - I guess it is a good reason to obliterate it, even Emperor must sometimes help himself - planet full of people who knew him before he started to be great publicly, many threats, he erased his past in quite a spectacular manner.

about xenophobia, many of those aliens seem to be simply simpletons, I can only guess that Empire would help their DNA turn very much humanish after some time and then Empire would be full of almost humans.

well, democracy is a source of regress in many fields of science, after all democracy is all about Jack=John, John=Jenny, Jenny=Brad+William, democracy to function well must put all people as equal so research that would discriminate would be turned back, resources and people are spread not up to their intellectual operative performances but as if they are all can be same good if they try. Democracy hides weapon productions and for the sake of public opinion must back from good ideas, democracy is hihly influenced by media and can be manipulated this way, yes, democracy stops progress - especially on the universe scale where enemies linger and want to bite off heads

Sith Empire is great, people are happy and brainwashing is no needed, Siths are all about individuality and free thinking thats why they progress, they develop all sort of things, chairs are a good example. How they can be oppressed, in what way ? they have jobs, families, they lead normal lives. and no intrigues of republic and corruption in it is much bigger than sith plays, after all there is quite less Siths than beaurocreatures in the republic and I can only guess that beaurocracy in the Empire is much smaller than Republic ones. Sith fighting with themselves is in fact a very good way to determine future leaders, defenders of the Empire, weak ones, those who cannot play their war games are simply cast out. After death of Emperor, there is gonna be another Emperor, nothing will collapse, and even without Emperor ( in fact it is unknown to most of Siths where is Emperor, bah Dark Council doesnt know what hes doing and Emperors function, he might be dead and Empire will go on ), Dark Council will function pretty well as they are the ones responsible for almost everything in the Empire, Emperor prefers his voyages and from what I suspect he seeks to eradicate force itself from the galaxy ( hes a pretty good willed person ) . Unlike Republic where people whos exactly to blame, everyone and noone, in Empire they can blame government in person, this Moff, this Sith etc. Empire is a disillusioned state where you either accept reality as it is or you cling to naive thoughts of useless freedom and die or turn to republic to drink few lies.
Aperture Science. We do what we must, because we can. For the good of all of us- Except the ones who are dead.

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MasterMe
01.05.2013 , 09:38 AM | #120
Quote: Originally Posted by Surinen View Post
well then, about Galactic Empire, if you speak about inside threats from rebels, then of course that Empire must acts, as said before, there is no place for disturbances in prosperity. if you speak of outside enemies, then there isnt much to say, they deserve obliteration for standing in the way of progress. If bribes serve a stabilization then there is nothing wrong about it, everybody should work for themselves, that is the idea of capitalism, one benefits and other may be happy thanks to his products. From what I remember, citizens of the Galactic Empire lived their lives quite normal. Of course, if bribes affect free economy then it should be cut, cut into pieces and fed to homeless ( meal is a meal after all and it would be extraordinary event to consume corrupted government agent ). Problem with Galactic Empire is that it was made to look horrible and evil, just becase but whats funnier, those rebels whol fight for a democracy, that is insane.

and why citizens are not happy ? and dont prosper? if they can work then they should work to achiev their goals. why wouldnt they be happy ? also, everybody lives in fear, that is what keep us moving forward, there is no single non disturbed emotionally person that fears nothing in any kind of world, whenether it is a love interest or work or price for a new jet fighter. Fear doesnt take out happiness, it just reminds that there are important things to do. Also who said that a point of life is happiness, the point of human species life is procreation and in the times where population is too big then its purpose is to die, get diseased and make only the strongest survive, altho in vast universe there is probably space for many people, people who can procreate and live their lives.

Empire does not provide delusionally hierarchy that favours everyone and makes everyone unhappy, Empire favours great people, great minds, while other may live their lives normall.

Democracy is a pure instrument of corruption and goverment that seeks it , does it only to control and oppress its citizens by giving them a completely illusional thing: right to vote so they vote for puppets that are ruled by the people in the shadows. No President, prime minister has any actual power, they are just figures. Right to vote simply decrease rebellious nature of people, after all they are the ones who chose someone. Democracy was made only for corruption, there is not even a tiny piece of good intent in democracy.

Empire on the other hand whit its monarchy may be corrupted but it isnt its main path, corruption is just a side effect that can be rooted out.

you cannoit cleanse democracy from its corruption because it is a corruption itself. Republic by its machination is destroying its citizens and the jedi are protecting this machinery for no good rational reasons unless they get tons of credits so thatruling body of the council secretely baths in the pools of warm milk on Tatooine
Corruption is a side-effect that can be rooted out in a monarchy? Seriously?
You cannot cleanse a democracy? Yes, actually, you can. If you don't want the current leader to rule any more, then simply vote for someone else. In a dictatorship, you get zero say. With that in mind, how is a dictatorship better then a democracy?

I could go on and on about the perks of democracy, but I'll stop.

But I've got one word for you: FREEDOM!!!!!!


Yeah. That monarchy or dictatorship you speak of is all fine until you actually experience that stuff for yourself.