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Your take on The Sith Order and the Jedi Order!

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Your take on The Sith Order and the Jedi Order!

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
01.04.2013 , 03:49 PM | #101
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post

Madness, utter madness.
Madness? THIS IS SPARTA!!!!!

Someone had to do it.

Anyway, I agree with you. Don't know what this guy is thinking...
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
01.04.2013 , 03:56 PM | #102
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Madness? THIS IS SPARTA!!!!!

Someone had to do it.

Anyway, I agree with you. Don't know what this guy is thinking...
I suspect this Sith Emperor brain washed him and implanted him into the forums to convert and spy on us. We must remain strong.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
01.04.2013 , 03:59 PM | #103
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I suspect this Sith Emperor brain washed him and implanted him into the forums to convert and spy on us. We must remain strong.
A spy? The Sith Emperor must not have been very smart, the guy has already blown his cover. He should have been a bit more subtle.

Staying strong over here!
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
01.04.2013 , 04:16 PM | #104
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
A spy? The Sith Emperor must not have been very smart, the guy has already blown his cover. He should have been a bit more subtle.

Staying strong over here!
Oh but remember what you said, that's the Sith tactic, keeping failing so the good guys feel safe /sarcasm

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
01.04.2013 , 04:20 PM | #105
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Oh but remember what you said, that's the Sith tactic, keeping failing so the good guys feel safe /sarcasm
Ah right! Keep doing what you're doing guy. We're not falling for it!

Oooh. Good fun, yes?
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Maaruin's Avatar


Maaruin
01.04.2013 , 06:44 PM | #106
Quote: Originally Posted by YeIIow View Post
The Jedi did not allowed Exar Kun to explore and follow the dark side of the force, they allowed him to go on a personal quest to explore the galaxy and its secretes, not exactly the same thing..
And every single master knew that he wanted to explore the dark side. They all still let him continue his search.

Quote:
btw don't mix things and brake into bad founded-conclutions, for 10k years there was balance, it was not the darksiders who broke from the order and created one of their own, and decided to purge the lightsiders.....
Well, lets break it down:

The Jedi are light side radicals and tend restrict darksiders.
The Sith are dark side radicals and tend to restrict lightsiders.
The Je'daii were balance radicals and restricted lightsiders and darksiders.

Can we agree on that?

So your Wookiepedia articles say different things than my Wookiepedia articles. What should we do about that?

Quote:
Are u saying that they(Jedi) did not abandoned balance? that they did not agreed on the thinking that the light side was stronger and that it was their duty to destroy the dark side, as they considered it evil?
Yes, they did abandon the balance. Yes, they agreed that the light side would be better (not neccessarily stronger). No, they didn't think their duty was to exterminate all darksiders or destroy the dark side.

Quote:
sorry but those thinkings sound pretty radical to me..... if they don't to u, what u call radical then?
As I said, the Wookiepedia article is wrong about that they decided to destroy the dark side. Someone made that up. The source it lists is Dawn of the Jedi 0. I checked that book and it says nothing about the Force Wars.
(If someone has read it and knows something, I missed, please inform me. But I just checked it again and AFAIK it stops ten years after the Despot War, before the Force Wars started.

Quote:
U can keep saying why they abandoned the balance and that it was for a greater good, it still doesn't changes the fact that they refused balance, refused to co-exist with the dark side of the force..... if u keep ignoring it, then ur basically claiming that: "the the end justifies the means".... then we can say the Sith are ultimately good, since they want peace and prosperity in a galaxy ruled by them.... or does "the the end justifies the means" only aplies to the Jedi? If the Empire kills millions of innocents,then they're evil, but if the Republic does the same, its justify cos it was in the name of a Greater GOOD? pls..... the why dosent changes the what....
I'm simply saying that it is worth nothing if you want to keep "balance" for balance's sake. The Jedi were mostly no more radical about darksiders than the Je'daii were about lightsiders and darksiders. (The time before the Second Great Schism is not how the order normally was.)

If the light side is better for everyone than the Je'daii's balance, then yes, screw balance and start following the light side.

Quote:
----------------------------------------------

about wookkipedia, even if the source is missing(sadly i duno why that was the case), i entrust myself to what ever wookkipedia says any day at anytime, rather that what an in-game codex says....

back to the Mass Effect example, the Original in-game ending of Mass Effect 3 contradicted many of what was Common Canon Lore, and well i think we all know all around that Retake Mass Effect movement..... Proving once more that what we see in-game is many times wrong or contradictory to what is cannon... in-game codexs and even less in-game dialogs, cant be trusted 100%....
yeah. But if the source Wookiepedia lists doesn't say what the article says, I will trust it less than the ingame dialogue. Chances are too high that someone made it up / that someone filled the gap with what he thought made the most sense.

We probably will have to wait what will happen in the Dawn of the Jedi comicbooks.
"I was one of many. We were servants of the dark side… Sith Lords, we called ourselves. So proud. In the end we were not so proud. We hid… hid from those we had betrayed. We fell… and I knew it would be so."
-Ajunta Pall

Surinen's Avatar


Surinen
01.05.2013 , 02:01 AM | #107
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Your clearly insane or delusional, or both. And for the record I meant the Galactic Empire, not the Sith Empire. The Galactic Empire is corrupt, period. They do everything a corrupt government would do: bribe, use fear, silence there enemies, rub out any atrocities they may have committed, and work only for themselves. So pray tell me, what's wrong with a corrupt Republic? You seem to advocate corruption, so why don't you support it?

And again, I repeat myself. What's the point in the Empire if it doesn't make its citizens happy? Isn't that the point? To make its citizens prosper, feel safe and be happy? (If not, then what is?) Yes a select few prosper but most don't, they are most certainly not happy and they certainly don't feel safe. Not in the slightest, what with the whole fear campaign going on. Sure it makes nice ships and lots and lots of money/materials etc. but what's the point of that? Isn't the point of life happiness? Well these guys seemed pretty happy when the Emperor died (jump to 0:43), so I guess the only way to achieve the purpose of human existence is too exterminate all Sith, including you :P

Madness, utter madness.
well then, about Galactic Empire, if you speak about inside threats from rebels, then of course that Empire must acts, as said before, there is no place for disturbances in prosperity. if you speak of outside enemies, then there isnt much to say, they deserve obliteration for standing in the way of progress. If bribes serve a stabilization then there is nothing wrong about it, everybody should work for themselves, that is the idea of capitalism, one benefits and other may be happy thanks to his products. From what I remember, citizens of the Galactic Empire lived their lives quite normal. Of course, if bribes affect free economy then it should be cut, cut into pieces and fed to homeless ( meal is a meal after all and it would be extraordinary event to consume corrupted government agent ). Problem with Galactic Empire is that it was made to look horrible and evil, just becase but whats funnier, those rebels whol fight for a democracy, that is insane.

and why citizens are not happy ? and dont prosper? if they can work then they should work to achiev their goals. why wouldnt they be happy ? also, everybody lives in fear, that is what keep us moving forward, there is no single non disturbed emotionally person that fears nothing in any kind of world, whenether it is a love interest or work or price for a new jet fighter. Fear doesnt take out happiness, it just reminds that there are important things to do. Also who said that a point of life is happiness, the point of human species life is procreation and in the times where population is too big then its purpose is to die, get diseased and make only the strongest survive, altho in vast universe there is probably space for many people, people who can procreate and live their lives.

Empire does not provide delusionally hierarchy that favours everyone and makes everyone unhappy, Empire favours great people, great minds, while other may live their lives normall.

Democracy is a pure instrument of corruption and goverment that seeks it , does it only to control and oppress its citizens by giving them a completely illusional thing: right to vote so they vote for puppets that are ruled by the people in the shadows. No President, prime minister has any actual power, they are just figures. Right to vote simply decrease rebellious nature of people, after all they are the ones who chose someone. Democracy was made only for corruption, there is not even a tiny piece of good intent in democracy.

Empire on the other hand whit its monarchy may be corrupted but it isnt its main path, corruption is just a side effect that can be rooted out.

you cannoit cleanse democracy from its corruption because it is a corruption itself. Republic by its machination is destroying its citizens and the jedi are protecting this machinery for no good rational reasons unless they get tons of credits so thatruling body of the council secretely baths in the pools of warm milk on Tatooine
Aperture Science. We do what we must, because we can. For the good of all of us- Except the ones who are dead.

Rabbarabba's Avatar


Rabbarabba
01.05.2013 , 02:59 AM | #108
Not sure how to word everything that goes on in my head.. but here goes.

From all i have seen of the Jedi... they are meant to be the good guys. However i find them hypocritical and a bit obsessive in the vast majority of the situations we see them.. too set in their ways. Jedi are good, Sith bad, republic good, empire bad. They can't be swayed, and that is my only issue with them.

The Sith are the opposite, the entire 'Sith Order' seems to revolve around being strong enough to live how you like. Good or Bad, its up to each individual, if they are powerful enough to uphold their individual views. Overall they seem more flexible than the jedi, and if they could avoid all the infighting and racism that is shown with powerful Sith ( which leaks down into the rest of the empire ) I think the Empire would be more successful than the Republic.

Sith cannot help but be seen as evil though, when most of them are corrupted by the power they have. It really comes down to each individually, imo.

YeIIow's Avatar


YeIIow
01.05.2013 , 05:02 AM | #109
Quote: Originally Posted by Maaruin View Post
The Jedi are light side radicals and tend restrict darksiders.
The Sith are dark side radicals and tend to restrict lightsiders.
The Je'daii were balance radicals and restricted lightsiders and darksiders.

Can we agree on that?
we can agree to some extend... the last line however is more like:

The Je'daii were balance radicals and restricted the extend aproaching to either full lightside or full darkside.


Quote: Originally Posted by Maaruin View Post
If the light side is better for everyone than the Je'daii's balance, then yes, screw balance and start following the light side.
sorry but with all the wars(almost all of the biggest ones) we have had as consecuence of the Jedi believe, of Light being better.... and the billions who have perished.... we can hardly say that : If the light side is better for everyone than the Je'daii's balance..... i mean once u think of it, it almost make u laught, don't u think? also who were the Jedi to claim the lightside was "better"? no-ones, just radicals blinded by their ideas of superiority.....


Quote: Originally Posted by Maaruin View Post
yeah. But if the source Wookiepedia lists doesn't say what the article says, I will trust it less than the ingame dialogue. Chances are too high that someone made it up / that someone filled the gap with what he thought made the most sense.

We probably will have to wait what will happen in the Dawn of the Jedi comicbooks.
Ok since my wookkipedia links and urs differ on the matte, lets get to an statement where both, ur saying and mine, can both be either right or wrong(or any variation of it) otherway this will go forever.... since our sources both proves us right to some degree...
"Forged by Fire; Empowered by Passion"
o◙[//////////]ị:◙:ị{▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒)

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
01.05.2013 , 06:09 AM | #110
Quote: Originally Posted by Surinen View Post
well then, about Galactic Empire, if you speak about inside threats from rebels, then of course that Empire must acts, as said before, there is no place for disturbances in prosperity. if you speak of outside enemies, then there isnt much to say, they deserve obliteration for standing in the way of progress. If bribes serve a stabilization then there is nothing wrong about it, everybody should work for themselves, that is the idea of capitalism, one benefits and other may be happy thanks to his products. From what I remember, citizens of the Galactic Empire lived their lives quite normal. Of course, if bribes affect free economy then it should be cut, cut into pieces and fed to homeless ( meal is a meal after all and it would be extraordinary event to consume corrupted government agent ). Problem with Galactic Empire is that it was made to look horrible and evil, just becase but whats funnier, those rebels whol fight for a democracy, that is insane.

and why citizens are not happy ? and dont prosper? if they can work then they should work to achiev their goals. why wouldnt they be happy ? also, everybody lives in fear, that is what keep us moving forward, there is no single non disturbed emotionally person that fears nothing in any kind of world, whenether it is a love interest or work or price for a new jet fighter. Fear doesnt take out happiness, it just reminds that there are important things to do. Also who said that a point of life is happiness, the point of human species life is procreation and in the times where population is too big then its purpose is to die, get diseased and make only the strongest survive, altho in vast universe there is probably space for many people, people who can procreate and live their lives.

Empire does not provide delusionally hierarchy that favours everyone and makes everyone unhappy, Empire favours great people, great minds, while other may live their lives normall.

Democracy is a pure instrument of corruption and goverment that seeks it , does it only to control and oppress its citizens by giving them a completely illusional thing: right to vote so they vote for puppets that are ruled by the people in the shadows. No President, prime minister has any actual power, they are just figures. Right to vote simply decrease rebellious nature of people, after all they are the ones who chose someone. Democracy was made only for corruption, there is not even a tiny piece of good intent in democracy.

Empire on the other hand whit its monarchy may be corrupted but it isnt its main path, corruption is just a side effect that can be rooted out.

you cannoit cleanse democracy from its corruption because it is a corruption itself. Republic by its machination is destroying its citizens and the jedi are protecting this machinery for no good rational reasons unless they get tons of credits so thatruling body of the council secretely baths in the pools of warm milk on Tatooine
"Happiness is the meaning and the purpose of life, the whole aim and end of human existence.” ~ Aristotle, one of the founding figures of western philosophy,

The purpose of life is not procreation, or 'survival of the fittest' - they are means to an end, not ends in themselves. If so then we are no better than animals and this discussion is pointless. Procreation is a means of which we bring life into the world, so that we can achieve happiness. 'Survival of the fittest', while being unnecessary in a civilised world, is also a means of achieving happiness. So that begs the question, to what end is progress achieving? It should be achieving the happiness of all peoples everywhere. But in the Galactic Empire, ruled over by a Sith Lord, has all its 'progress' centralised on military might. What's 2000 Imperial Star Destroyers going to do for the people? Well so far one SD flattened a whole bunch of protestors on Coruscant so murder and mayhem is one product. Oh, and then there's the Death Star that blew up an entire planet for a measly bit of information. Progress, yeah. Quintillions of credits were put into the imperial war machine when they could have been better spent elsewhere. In fact everything was dominated by military, even science. Any science that did not further military progress was rejected and repressed. You call that progress? I call that idiocy.

And you talk about the Galactic Empire creating 'great minds' and 'great people'. Please, name a few? Grand Moff Tarkin? The Imperial Moff that blew up an entire planet and controlled a populace through fear? Emperor Palpatine? The man who created a monster responsible for countless deaths and untold destruction? Not exactly achievements, not exactly great. And if we draw away from all the 'great' military leaders, then what do we have. Nobody. Because through a combination of repression and censorship the Galactic Empire and all authoritarian states to date destroyed any chance of independent thought. All 'great minds' were brain washed into blind servitude, and shielded from knowledge lest it cause disruption of 'progress'. There were no great people in the Galactic Empire, other than military leaders and monsters, because great people cause 'trouble'.

And then there's the other product. Fear. Yes fear is a part of ever day lives but when fear overwhelms all other things, and drives people into blind obedience, then it becomes dangerous and undesirable. The fear created by the Empire impeded on happiness. And no, the citizens of the Empire were not happy, they were oppressed. You just didn't hear about it because all that was censored by a corrupt and authoritarian government. What's more the Empire's xenophobic nature meant aliens were all but rejected by society. More unhappy people.

And what does that mean? Rebellion. The Galactic Empire was flawed from the very beginning, for by repressing peoples freedoms through fear, it was doomed to be torn apart by rebellion and revolt. Something that would rarely happen in the Republic, and never successfully. Just take a look at the numbers, the Galactic Republic stood for over 25 thousand years. The Galactic Empire stood for just over 20, and that's including the period in which it was collapsing. Now you'll probably argue that that's because Star Wars favours 'democracy' over authoritarian rule. Which is true, but in comparison to the real world, its just the same. Most authoritarian governments have failed, or been so far distorted that they are no longer what they used to be. For example: the Roman Empire, the British Empire, Nazi Germany, the USSR, just to name a few. Democracy however, has lasted. Who is currently the most powerful and influential country in the world? The USA, a 'democracy'.

Basically the Empire wouldn't be so bad if its 'progress' achieved something meaningful and useful to human existence. But it didn't it just churned out oppression, repression, fear, unhappiness, xenophobia, censorship, mass genocide and military power. We don't want that. We want democracy.