Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Kaggath Heats: General Grievous vs Mandalore the Ultimate

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Heats: General Grievous vs Mandalore the Ultimate

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
12.27.2012 , 06:12 AM | #1
“No game of dejarik can be won without pawns...”

Round 1: General Grievous vs Mandalore the Ultimate

Welcome to the opening heat of the ‘Kaggath Tournament’. A competition pitting the power bases of the iconic Star Wars characters seen in the ‘Kaggath vs Series’ against each other in an epic tournament-style extravaganza.

For all those of you aren’t aware, the Kaggath is an ancient rite of the Sith, ‘one part duel, one part large-scale dejarik-match’. The two combatants have full use of their power bases, be it armies, strongholds or fleets, in order to outwit and outmanoeuvre their opponent. The Kaggath is no simple lightsaber duel, although it can come down to one, and the arena can be anywhere: a planet, star system or the entire galaxy.

Before we begin, let’s set out the ground rules for the Heats.

  • The arena: the known galaxy.
  • No outside help of any kind, the combatants cannot call upon assets outside their power base, or other prominent powers apart from those listed below i.e. Dooku, Canderous Ordo.
  • No outside involvement, other powers will not and cannot interrupt or affect the battle, for the purpose of argument they are non-existent.
  • No surrender, fight to the death!
  • No superweapons, e.g. the Malevolence.
  • Technology level is universal (unless considered archaic or advanced at the time): blaster fire, armouring, lightsabers etc. are all the same regardless of period, all that matters is size, quantity and power.
  • Use your imagination: obviously these powers existed in a different time frame but let’s just pretend.

Permitted Allies:

General Grievous: Asajj Ventress

Mandalore the Ultimate: Cassus Fett

So, the combatants: Mandalore the Ultimate was a powerful, visionary leader and brazen strategist who would go to any means to win. While General Grievous was a brilliant, brutal tactician and exemplary lightsaber duelist.

Grievous had command of the Separatist Droid Armies, while Mandalore the Ultimate commanded a vast legion of Neo-Crusaders. Both had vast and powerful armadas at their disposal, but who will win?

Let the Kaggath begin!

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
12.27.2012 , 07:08 AM | #2
I have something to say:

Taken from the SWTOR Encyclopedia, published in 2012:
Quote:
"But perhaps the most famous aspect of Mandalorian armor is its resistance to lightsabers, thanks to the special properties of the unique iron used in the armor's construction. Known as Beskar in their native language...."
So do Mandalorians get Beskar? Well, the newest source for SWTOR says so. If SWTOR mandos had it, obviously Mandalore the Ultimate had it as well.

It continues:
Quote:
"....this metal is exceptionally durable for its weight, though only a select few Mandalorian craftsmen know how to to work the metal to maximum efficiency."
It stands to reason that these advanced armor makers died out by the later years (AKA: The Clone Wars) and that is why we see the difference.

EDIT: However, as seen from the Usage section of this Wookeepedia article, it was only used in full suits very rarely. Usually, it was employed in gloves or smaller pieces of armor that are used less.

So not every Mandalorian would have Beskar Armor.

I also cannot find proof that Neo-crusaders used Beskar at all.

What does this mean?
1. Certain Mandos might have an occasional defensive advantage
2. Mandalore (who we assume has full Beskar) can face Grevious and not auto-lose

And just so y'all know, I'm siding with Grievous on this one. Just wanted to even the playing feild for Mandalore.
~~ AiR ~~
What are you more afraid of?
A weapon that could destroy you?
Or a weapon that could turn you into a monster?

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
12.27.2012 , 07:44 AM | #3
Methinks Greivous wins.

I would compare the Mandos army to the Clone army, only there aren't nearly as many Mandos as there are clones. That's a problem for MtU. The clones were barely able to beat the droids, even with the help of the Jedi. This spells a victory for Greivous.

The only thing (I can think of) that MtU really has that the clones didn't is Basilisk War Droids. They're definately a factor.

In the end I believe that Greivious will eventually overwelm MtU. Sad. I would much prefer MtU to win this battle. I am one of those people who cannot stand the B1 battle droids and I think their effectiveness is nearly zero. But canon says that these pathetic droids nearly beat the clones. With that in mind, I feel that they will beat MtU. Suckage.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
12.27.2012 , 08:09 AM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
I have something to say:

Taken from the SWTOR Encyclopedia, published in 2012:
Quote:
"But perhaps the most famous aspect of Mandalorian armor is its resistance to lightsabers, thanks to the special properties of the unique iron used in the armor's construction. Known as Beskar in their native language...."
So do Mandalorians get Beskar? Well, the newest source for SWTOR says so. If SWTOR mandos had it, obviously Mandalore the Ultimate had it as well.

It continues:
Quote:
"....this metal is exceptionally durable for its weight, though only a select few Mandalorian craftsmen know how to to work the metal to maximum efficiency."
It stands to reason that these advanced armor makers died out by the later years (AKA: The Clone Wars) and that is why we see the difference.

EDIT: However, as seen from the Usage section of this Wookeepedia article, it was only used in full suits very rarely. Usually, it was employed in gloves or smaller pieces of armor that are used less.

So not every Mandalorian would have Beskar Armor.

I also cannot find proof that Neo-crusaders used Beskar at all.

What does this mean?
1. Certain Mandos might have an occasional defensive advantage
2. Mandalore (who we assume has full Beskar) can face Grevious and not auto-lose

And just so y'all know, I'm siding with Grievous on this one. Just wanted to even the playing feild for Mandalore.
Very informative, I think this will be K-Canon in our approach to Mandalorian iron. And there is actually proof that Neo-Crusaders used Beskar. See here. In physical and technical specifications it lists structure as Mandalorian Iron. The source of this is most likely an anonymous Neo-Crusader from KOTOR or KOTOR 2 boasting about his beskar, I seem to recall that. So we can assume that Neo-Crusader armour was reinforced with beskar at least.
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
Methinks Greivous wins.

I would compare the Mandos army to the Clone army, only there aren't nearly as many Mandos as there are clones. That's a problem for MtU. The clones were barely able to beat the droids, even with the help of the Jedi. This spells a victory for Greivous.

The only thing (I can think of) that MtU really has that the clones didn't is Basilisk War Droids. They're definately a factor.

In the end I believe that Greivious will eventually overwelm MtU. Sad. I would much prefer MtU to win this battle. I am one of those people who cannot stand the B1 battle droids and I think their effectiveness is nearly zero. But canon says that these pathetic droids nearly beat the clones. With that in mind, I feel that they will beat MtU. Suckage.
B1 battle droids kinda suck. But Super Battle Droids, Magnaguards, Commando droids and Droidekas rule

Remember though:
The CIS were strong enough to challenge the Republic, however they were pretty much on the back foot for most of the Clone Wars which lasted only 3 years. But the Republic had the best defenses of any Republic era, the Grand Army of the Republic, as well as a formidable Republic navy.

The Mandalorians were also strong enough to challenge the Republic and in the first stages of the war where far more successful than the CIS ever were in the swift conquest of the Outer Rim. However once the Revanchists got involved, which was not even the full Force on the Jedi Order, they began to lose. However the Mandalorians managed to hold their own against the Republic for 16 years. However the Republic Navy and Army was not as effective as it was during the Clone Wars.

Just something to consider.

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
12.27.2012 , 09:01 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Very informative, I think this will be K-Canon in our approach to Mandalorian iron. And there is actually proof that Neo-Crusaders used Beskar. See here. In physical and technical specifications it lists structure as Mandalorian Iron. The source of this is most likely an anonymous Neo-Crusader from KOTOR or KOTOR 2 boasting about his beskar, I seem to recall that. So we can assume that Neo-Crusader armour was reinforced with beskar at least.
Apparently, according to Wookieepedia, the neo-crusader armor had a "harder surface" than the normal crusaders. So we can assume that the bulk of the mandalorian (neo-crusader) armor was not actually Beskar, but another metal.

HOWEVER: The reason Beskar matters here is because Mandalore undoubtedly has a full set. And that makes him hard to kill.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
B1 battle droids kinda suck. But Super Battle Droids, Magnaguards, Commando droids and Droidekas rule

Remember though:
The CIS were strong enough to challenge the Republic, however they were pretty much on the back foot for most of the Clone Wars which lasted only 3 years. But the Republic had the best defenses of any Republic era, the Grand Army of the Republic, as well as a formidable Republic navy.

The Mandalorians were also strong enough to challenge the Republic and in the first stages of the war where far more successful than the CIS ever were in the swift conquest of the Outer Rim. However once the Revanchists got involved, which was not even the full Force on the Jedi Order, they began to lose. However the Mandalorians managed to hold their own against the Republic for 16 years. However the Republic Navy and Army was not as effective as it was during the Clone Wars.

Just something to consider.
Saying that the Mandalorians were more swift in their conquering of the outer rim doesn't make any sense. Planets joined the CIS instantly once they declared independence. Also, this map shows that they controlled a good chunk of the galaxy, as you said, in under three years.

Saying that the Mandalorians held out for 16 years isn't exactly fair, considering the CIS lost instantly when their leaders were killed by Darth Vader. We have no idea how long they would have gone on.
~~ AiR ~~
What are you more afraid of?
A weapon that could destroy you?
Or a weapon that could turn you into a monster?

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
12.27.2012 , 09:07 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
Methinks Greivous wins.

I would compare the Mandos army to the Clone army, only there aren't nearly as many Mandos as there are clones. That's a problem for MtU. The clones were barely able to beat the droids, even with the help of the Jedi. This spells a victory for Greivous.
^ This.

Jango Fett was a mandalorian. The Clones were.... clones of him. If we assume that Jango Fett was an average Mandalorian, or that his clones were average Mandalorians, Grievous will win. And that's being generous, considering the fact that clones were supposed to be trained soldiers from day one, 24/7.

Grievous wins by what he should always win by: sheer numbers.

I'm waiting for the quality over quantity argument to be made, but I don't see how it can.

a. The lack of full body Beskar (on foot-troops) takes away defensive advantage
b. The Mandalorians as a whole are undoubtably weaker than the Clone Army, which the CIS put up a fight against
~~ AiR ~~
What are you more afraid of?
A weapon that could destroy you?
Or a weapon that could turn you into a monster?

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
12.27.2012 , 09:19 AM | #7
I feel like I'm clogging this thread, but I gotta get all my arguments in before I leave on vacation! Sorry!

1.)You can make more droids. (See thousands of worlds allied)
You can't make more Mandos. (See elitest nature and need of lifetime of training.... and being born.)


2.) When end-game comes, I have the feeling Grievous and Assajj and Magma Guards will team up to take on Mandalore. He's probably either
a. Too honorable to call for help
b. The only survivor/ no one -can- help him.
He won't be a match for the two of them and the droids. Beskar might be immune to lightsabers, but not the Force. Or zap-rod things.


3.) I doubt Cassus Fett can do anything for Mandalore other than command the army. Grievous is already a master stragegist, so it's not like it's tactics vs. none.
~~ AiR ~~
What are you more afraid of?
A weapon that could destroy you?
Or a weapon that could turn you into a monster?

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
12.27.2012 , 09:28 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
I feel like I'm clogging this thread, but I gotta get all my arguments in before I leave on vacation! Sorry!

1.)You can make more droids. (See thousands of worlds allied)
You can't make more Mandos. (See elitest nature and need of lifetime of training.... and being born.)


2.) When end-game comes, I have the feeling Grievous and Assajj and Magma Guards will team up to take on Mandalore. He's probably either
a. Too honorable to call for help
b. The only survivor/ no one -can- help him.
He won't be a match for the two of them and the droids. Beskar might be immune to lightsabers, but not the Force. Or zap-rod things.


3.) I doubt Cassus Fett can do anything for Mandalore other than command the army. Grievous is already a master stragegist, so it's not like it's tactics vs. none.
You make good points, I'll leave others to counter them. Hope you have a nice holiday by the way, hopefully you'll be back in time for G0-T0 vs Tyber Zaan!

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
12.27.2012 , 09:49 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
You make good points, I'll leave others to counter them. Hope you have a nice holiday by the way, hopefully you'll be back in time for G0-T0 vs Tyber Zaan!
I will hopefully have connection in a couple days, so I shouldn't be out of the debate for too long! I get back in a week. Would it be too much to ask to know when that G0-T0 one is coming?


4.) No diversity.

Everybody talk about the Basilisk war droids and how great they are. I agree completely.
However.
Is their another example of a ground vechicle for the Mandos? At this point it seems like all the Mandos have as far as ground troops are
a. Foot Soldiers (w/o Beskar)
b. Basilisk War Droids.

That's kinda weak. The CIS has so much diversity and adaptability in its troops compared to the Mandos.


5.)Just a couple things that could counter Basilisks:
- Hailfire Droids
- This thing


6.) Also, please explain how the Mandalorians plan to kill this thing?

Super Tank ftw.


7.) Assassins
CIS has tons.
- Anzati Assassins
- A-series
- Assassin Probe
Mandos have none.


Ok, ok, I'm getting carried away. Sorry, I'm trying to make it up to Grievous and the CIS for letting them lose before.
~~ AiR ~~
What are you more afraid of?
A weapon that could destroy you?
Or a weapon that could turn you into a monster?

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
12.27.2012 , 09:52 AM | #10
Tyber Zann vs G0-T0 will be the Round 3 of the Heats. And you make very good points, Grievous holds all the guards. However all Mandalore has to do to win is kill Grievous... which at least if he managed to get a 1v1 engagement is definitely possible.