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A painful trend...

 

Omophorus's Avatar


Omophorus
12.27.2012 , 02:30 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by thatPERSON View Post
when i que as a healer, i lay down ground rules.
1: you jump into a boss fight before everyone is ready, you arent getting healed. same goes for the dps that jump into a fight before the tank
2: if the dps refuse to attack healer-->weakest-strongest, they arent getting heals.
3: im the healer so i have final say in this flashpoint, you dont like it, quit.
a couple of deaths does wonders for the idiots i run into in group finder

that typically straightens up the group right away... for me at least.

and also, they dont dare kick me cause it will take 2 hours for them to find another healer on my server.
When I queue as anything, if anyone is this much of a punk I votekick them and use companion until they get backfilled (I bet most of my healers are better geared than most real healers and can do about as effective of a job... and experience bears that out).

If the rest of the group is too stupid to votekick, then I'll just leave, whether tank or otherwise. Your prima donna BS just doesn't fly.

Also, I'm with the other folks here who use it when it's needed. You pretty much have to be a PT or Marauder (or maybe a REALLY good Sin) and completely decked out to have a chance of needing it. Threat mechanics are just too forgiving for tanks.
Srs'bsns, GM of <Proper Villains> of The Ebon Hawk
5/5 Nightmare Power DF & DP
"This is why we don't bring Assassin tanks"

OlosBC's Avatar


OlosBC
12.27.2012 , 09:56 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Omophorus View Post
Also, I'm with the other folks here who use it when it's needed. You pretty much have to be a PT or Marauder (or maybe a REALLY good Sin) and completely decked out to have a chance of needing it. Threat mechanics are just too forgiving for tanks.
Focus guard/rage jugg is pretty lol on the threat as well. But its not too bad if you're following correct priority, since trash dies so fast.
Olos - 55 Hybrid Powertech
Fonia - 55 Madness Sorceror
<Dark Fury> of Jedi Covenant
Previously Fonia and Daygoru of Tempest server in SWG.

Satedbuffalo's Avatar


Satedbuffalo
12.27.2012 , 03:46 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by iEuthanasia View Post
Has anyone else been noticing lately while using Group Finder that tanks just don't bother using Guard anymore? I find this to be exceedingly aggravating. As an Operative healer, I try and keep my probe on the other 3 members of the group more or less exclusively. With there being no guard on me, you can imagine my frustration when I get a group and I am watching the tank and two DPS tunnel vision a gold mob while 1-2 silver mobs and a few regular mobs take a quick interest in me.

I guess in general, I feel like I'm noticing a decline on knowledge of mechanics.

...

I just wish there was some way to try and offer some constructive advice without being called a "troll" and then more or less ignored for the remainder of the run. My ignore list has more than tripled since I've started playing a healer.
Well, GF queues probably aren't the best place to change player behavior: almost everything is taken as agression. That said, I think it's really important to have your facts straight before you make authoritative suggestions to others (I'm not even touching thatPERSON's "ground rules").

I'm not sure I understand what mechanic you're thinking about when you ask for/expect a guard as a healer in PvE. Explain the mechanic at work where guarding a healer improves the situation you describe.

Admittedly, there are some -few- instances where guarding a healer is optimal (TFB comes to mind). But not in flashpoints, and certainly not while dealing with trash. A really good tank will rotate his guard depending on the situation, but that's almost never necessary in FPs.

Honestly, your issue sounds more like a complaint about DPS who don't understand their duty (picking up and dispatching trash mobs before eliminating the bigs) than about poor tanking. If I walk into a FP and a tank guards me, I know I'm in for some woefully inexperienced tanking. Some of my worst experiences as a healer have almost nothing to do with bad tanks and more to do with dismal DPS (low damage+wrong target=unhappy healer).

I hope that's constructive. If you're expressing a desire for a guard in GF, you're probably running into good tanks who think you don't know what you're talking about and reacting poorly.

Ilysanth's Avatar


Ilysanth
12.27.2012 , 04:51 PM | #14
Have to agree with above poster. I main as a tank and alt as a healer. When I first started tanking, I popped guard on my healer right away every time. Later on, i started realizing that I got more benefit out of it by popping it on the player that most needed it, which may or may not be the healer depending on the circumstances. Sometimes it is on that DPS who thinks they need to go all out at the very start of every fight and give the tank no time to build up the top of the threat table. Sometimes it's the DPS who is high geared and skilled enough that they are doing it unintentionally. Sometimes it's the healer drawing to much aggro with those huge heals. Situation means everything.

I've been PUGging with my healer a lot lately and I've taken to waiting a few pulls to evaluate the situation then I'll ask the tank if I can be guarded if it is warranted. Lately it is that I've been running SM FPs with lvl 44-47 people on my lvl 50 healer. I'm going to pull aggro when I heal. So I'll ask. Never been told no when I've explained my reasoning but it isn't required because "I'm the healer".

schnopsnosn's Avatar


schnopsnosn
12.27.2012 , 05:46 PM | #15
If the DPS have less than 13k hp I put the guard on the healer since it's more likely that he(or in my case mostly she) will pull aggro on trash than the two DPS since she basically doesn't have to heal me at all(decked out in 61+ sin-tank).

It's pretty ridiculous to think that a healer needs guard at all. Healing abilities by itself generate 50% thread and you can skill another aggro-reduction on healing-skills aswell.
Whereas I'm pretty sure that a decked out Marauder can pull aggro off me when he's using Bloodthirst + Adrenal (+ maybe power-relic)

ThePasserby's Avatar


ThePasserby
12.30.2012 , 12:39 PM | #16
To reduce the damage taken by the healer in trash pulls, it takes both the tank and the dps to know what they should do. While the tank has to grab the aggro and maintain control of the mobs, good dps can really help in the process by killing mobs in the right order, which is healer>weakest>strongest.

If you really need to pug, I'd suggest running with at least one friend or guildie. If you can get even one good DPS to queue with you, half of your problem disappears as he would be killing in the right order and reduce damage directed at you, even if the tank is less than competent.

As some have pointed out, in the situation you described, having a Guard on you doesn't help much. The tank needs to learn to control the room and the dps needs to help him with that.

MantorokTwelve's Avatar


MantorokTwelve
12.30.2012 , 12:52 PM | #17
Only time I really see threat being pulled off of me as a tankassin is when my raid's marauder goes completely bats**t, bloodthirst, relic, adrenal, everything. He pulled threat TWICE on NIM stormcaller, and that's with a guard and a taunt after the first one. I can only assume he dropped his threat drop from his rotation for the sake of getting as much DPS as possible (we were having trouble with 2 Double Destructions), but that is the only time I have ever had threat problems.

As a DPS, I generally only pull threat when I'm feeling especially bursty and the tank isn't doing his job (trash is grouped up, he's wailing on one strong instead of AOEing) and I derpsmash and pull everything he isn't tanking. Pulling threat as my sorc healer though feels completely useless, as all I can really do is threat drop, bubble, and hope one of the idiots attacks that enemy while I try to keep myself and them alive.

Pubsam's Avatar


Pubsam
01.01.2013 , 12:29 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Satedbuffalo View Post
If I walk into a FP and a tank guards me, I know I'm in for some woefully inexperienced tanking.
Once holding threat isn't an issue, Guard simply becomes a slight damage mitigation ability, and you can really put it anywhere. I tend to put it on a healer because... why not. Everyone can benefit from the mitigation, but the healer is more likely to benefit from the threat reduction effect.

-Bad DPS won't follow an intelligent kill order, leaving normal mobs up. I just have to look funny at a normal mob to keep threat off a guarded healer.
-Good DPS will kill normal mobs in half a second. I suppose I could Guard them to mitigate damage for their half a second tanking adventure. Eh. I certainly don't care about the threat part. If the DPS are bothering to kill the normal mobs first I don't need to bother tanking them.

So in my experience on all ends of PvE roles (particularly as DPS), it's the more inexperienced tanks with poor threat that benefit from putting Guard on a DPS. (Please note I'm talking about average LFG fodder DPS. When I do get that rare well-geared Mara beast, he's guraded.) A good tank with good threat can forget Guard and you probably wouldn't even notice.
Time for a nap.

ladwar's Avatar


ladwar
01.02.2013 , 05:35 AM | #19
i don't heal as much as i used to but i never seen this as a big problem. when i tank i place my guard on dps if they look overgeared or use aoes a ton otherwise it goes on the healer. when i heal i almost never get guarded every thou i pull alot of aggro but i know how to dps and heal just fine. when i dps i want guard so im not tanking the boss for the tank. the tank can only guard one person and most of the time it wouldn't make a huge difference if the healer got guarded for every flashpoint. for operations healers never get guard, it the top dps.

DonkeyGobbler's Avatar


DonkeyGobbler
01.04.2013 , 09:00 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Pubsam View Post
Once holding threat isn't an issue, Guard simply becomes a slight damage mitigation ability, and you can really put it anywhere. I tend to put it on a healer because... why not. Everyone can benefit from the mitigation, but the healer is more likely to benefit from the threat reduction effect.
Not really. The damage reduction only affects incoming damage from other players (i.e. PvP), a point which most people seem to miss. Healers get swamped at the start of a fight because their threat is spread equally amongst all mobs. Therefore, if DPS and Tank miss some mobs they'll head to the healer. Reducing that threat level, even slightly, will make no difference whatsoever. Dropping threat from 100% to 75% means they'll still have more than that generated by the tank and DPS spanking a different mob.

What should happen, of course, is that the tank picks up as many mobs as possible (with concentration on strongs) while the DPS pick off the weak and work upwards. Reality, however, is a different matterÖ

Anyway, in the hundreds of HMs Iíve run I have never seen a healer genuinely pull aggro off anyone. Yes, they get attacked but, as above, thatís unavoidable if people donít do their jobs. Guarding a healer is worthless and always makes me facepalm when Iím that healer, especially when Iím running with a guildmate gunslinger who can drag aggro (seemingly) at will.