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A painful trend...


iEuthanasia's Avatar


iEuthanasia
12.24.2012 , 10:12 PM | #1
Has anyone else been noticing lately while using Group Finder that tanks just don't bother using Guard anymore? I find this to be exceedingly aggravating. As an Operative healer, I try and keep my probe on the other 3 members of the group more or less exclusively. With there being no guard on me, you can imagine my frustration when I get a group and I am watching the tank and two DPS tunnel vision a gold mob while 1-2 silver mobs and a few regular mobs take a quick interest in me.

I guess in general, I feel like I'm noticing a decline on knowledge of mechanics. I've tried to bring this up on more than one occasion to groups trying to educate them about the extra difficulty I have to go through with healing myself on top of 3 other people rather than just 1 or sometime 2 people. I try and remain calm as much as possible and always give people the benefit of the doubt. We all start somewhere, right? Most of the time, I'm met with instant hostility, about how I should worry about how to play my own class, since I was "at 1/4 life the whole fight like a nub."

That said, the first character I made just a little over a year ago was an assassin tank. I have the concept down pretty well after having tanked every HM Flashpoint, world boss, EV and KP SM/HM/NM and EC SM/HM before moving on to try out DPS and finally healer. I just find it extremely discouraging when people lack the patience to try and make the whole ordeal more enjoyable for everyone involved. I've recently joined up with a guild that is raid oriented and I can only hope that as a result my time with the Group Finder has come to an end.

I just wish there was some way to try and offer some constructive advice without being called a "troll" and then more or less ignored for the remainder of the run. My ignore list has more than tripled since I've started playing a healer. I really feel for you guys in ways that I never thought possible.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
12.25.2012 , 12:46 AM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by iEuthanasia View Post
With there being no guard on me, you can imagine my frustration when I get a group and I am watching the tank and two DPS tunnel vision a gold mob while 1-2 silver mobs and a few regular mobs take a quick interest in me.
Well, first off, as a person that plays tanks in the large majority, Guard isn't going to help you in that situation. If the tank and the DPS are tunnel visioning an elite, 5% extra DR is about all you're getting from it and that's not really going to make a noticeable difference.

On a similar note, I elect not to use Guard when I'm playing my tanks because I like to push myself to maintain threat without it. I also try to not use Taunt unless it's *absolutely* necessary. The threat reduction and cheap threat gain are simply not mechanics that interest me, and I've gotten really good at maintaining threat without ever actually using either (pretty much the only way to get aggro from me is to actually Taunt off of one of my tanks as a DPS).

The primary problem with what's happening to you is people simply not caring about the proper kill order (healers>weaks/standards>strongs>elites>champs). When you're leveling, people are either too inexperienced or just don't care and want to just tab and stab. When you're at 50, even the people that *should* know better, oftentimes refuse to actually do the correct thing because they're "so overgeared I can kill this elite in the same time it would take to kill that standard/strong" (even though it takes them 2 GCDs to kills the strong/standard on the outside and 7-8 for the elite...). A lot of people just have no interest in actually doing the right thing and, oftentimes, they think that the healer should just pick up the slack and throw out more green numbers.

My solution is to just stop healing people unless they actually start killing the proper targets. If the tank is only getting aggro on one target and letting everything else blow up the heals, stop healing the tank until they learn to get aggro on more than 1 thing. If the DPS are just tunnel-visioning the elites, don't heal them and let them die. A wipe on a random trash pack because you simply didn't heal them at all is a pretty decent way to make a point (and, if you do it right, you won't even get into combat). If they want to make your life more difficult by being selfish *******es, do it right back to them until they realize that, *maybe*, it would behoove them to get some hate off the healer with some intelligent target priority.
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Sivar's Avatar


Sivar
12.25.2012 , 02:43 PM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by iEuthanasia View Post
Has anyone else been noticing lately while using Group Finder that tanks just don't bother using Guard anymore? I find this to be exceedingly aggravating. As an Operative healer, I try and keep my probe on the other 3 members of the group more or less exclusively. With there being no guard on me, you can imagine my frustration when I get a group and I am watching the tank and two DPS tunnel vision a gold mob while 1-2 silver mobs and a few regular mobs take a quick interest in me.
I know what you mean, I maintain a tank, dps and healer so I see the same thing, and in fact I find it more frustrating when they put guard on a dps (I know why they're doing it, but it doesn't make it less frustrating).

However I find it to be even more disturbing when I heal or dps (and it has been this way since the game was released) that the tanks normally don't even bother to try and hold everything, letting it either roam free or the DPS to deal with it while they take one or two mobs.

Maybe it's a carryover for me from when I was tanking in WoW but I always try to hold everything in a pull while the dps does their work, and I consider it a bad pull when spare mobs get away from me be it in FPs or Ops.

That and a laugh at people who put taunt in their tanking rotations, but that's another matter.
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Alhxor's Avatar


Alhxor
12.25.2012 , 08:23 PM | #4
Running with pugs is always painful, one way or another. Less so for a good tank/dps then a healer of course. I'm still learning how to be a good op healer so i find such situations actually helping me to learn it better by keeping everyone alive in the most dire circumstances for them and myself, if all goes ideal it gets kinda boring to do HM FPs every day.
Al'xor [assassin] | Kyr'amud [powertech] | Krsh [marauder] | Kersin [operative]
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Cleet_Xia's Avatar


Cleet_Xia
12.26.2012 , 10:52 AM | #5
Playing a toon to 50 as each role ~ tank/dps/healer is a bit of an eye opener. For me it really changed how I looked at dysfunctional groups. And I realized that a lot of stuff that I blamed on tanks, was really being caused by poorly played dps toons. I really think some of worst habits are instilled in some players by the use of healing companions. My dps commando almost never has to use it's out of combat self heal for example. I can just pull/ kill/ pull/ kill, ad infinitum, and rarely will I get low enough that I'm worrying about wiping. If I acted like that in a group though, I'd be just @#$^#$ all over some player controlled healer. And when I'm playing my healer, I want to choke dps players that pull that. I've also seen a lot of tanks fail to hold aggro on 3 mobs, and there isn't any excuse for that. In large packs of weaks, if the dps don't AoE, they need to be prepaired to do some "off tanking" ~ but less than 1 in 5 actually do.

Play has been sloppy in this game, because HM are not actually hard enough. Before patch 1.2 it was actually much better, and players played much smarter. But then BW had to start nerfing the HMs, and giving away sets of recruit and now Tionese. Even before they did this it was more than possible to clear several of the HMs in blue 48 mods, wihtout skipping bosses, it just required people to really play.
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thatPERSON's Avatar


thatPERSON
12.26.2012 , 12:37 PM | #6
when i que as a healer, i lay down ground rules.
1: you jump into a boss fight before everyone is ready, you arent getting healed. same goes for the dps that jump into a fight before the tank
2: if the dps refuse to attack healer-->weakest-strongest, they arent getting heals.
3: im the healer so i have final say in this flashpoint, you dont like it, quit.
a couple of deaths does wonders for the idiots i run into in group finder

that typically straightens up the group right away... for me at least.

and also, they dont dare kick me cause it will take 2 hours for them to find another healer on my server.

MishraArtificer's Avatar


MishraArtificer
12.26.2012 , 12:56 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by thatPERSON View Post
3: im the healer so i have final say in this flashpoint, you dont like it, quit.
Sure thing! (The tank quits.)

Your move.
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OlosBC's Avatar


OlosBC
12.26.2012 , 01:01 PM | #8
When I tank I usually don't bother with guard till someone proves that they need it. As a ptech its pretty ridiculously easy to control everything in a pack, though can be kinda annoying if they're all spread out. Guard on a healer doesn't make any difference really cause one rapid shots will keep most things off a healer for 10+ seconds with or without guard.

Operative healers do tend to be the worst tho, cause those probes are often ticking all the time, so sometimes the get a bit of agro before I've tagged everything.

On my sorc I try not to drop big heals before everything has been tagged, but bubbles do make agro management pretty easy.
Olos - 55 Hybrid Powertech
Fonia - 55 Madness Sorceror
<Dark Fury> of Jedi Covenant
Previously Fonia and Daygoru of Tempest server in SWG.

OlosBC's Avatar


OlosBC
12.26.2012 , 01:06 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by MishraArtificer View Post
Sure thing! (The tank quits.)

Your move.
Yup!

Seen people talk about that kinda stuff on the forums, but never have had someone quite that bad on the making demands end in game.
Olos - 55 Hybrid Powertech
Fonia - 55 Madness Sorceror
<Dark Fury> of Jedi Covenant
Previously Fonia and Daygoru of Tempest server in SWG.

MantorokTwelve's Avatar


MantorokTwelve
12.27.2012 , 02:12 AM | #10
If we're going to just complain about pugs, I hate any time I queue as a DPS. I remember one time I queued up with a guildie, we got an ineffective tank and a pretty good healer. Me and the guildie decided we were just going to tank everything, and the healer kept up with us (and by that I mean he was able to DPS with us). The poor tank was losing his mind trying to keep up with us.

I've managed to pug some pretty bad ones though. Got in on an in progress foundry with an assassin tank with 14k health, he was confused when he couldn't equip the exotech survivor drop from HK-47 (so yay, a f2p). Another time in a boarding party, I was the only non-stealther in a group full of stealths, they all were using their stealth CCs, and then they were still attacking the mobs afterwards.

It's like every time my queue pops, I enter the twilight zone. Had 4 tanks join and drop a FE HM group before, all instantly. One of them had 14k and got kicked, the other 3 just quit before they even phased in. And the other 2 guys in the group didn't look bad, no idea why they were dropping.

Honestly, if I could queue with my companion as a healer, I'd be so happy. Or if you could get the GF done by grouping up with one other person and 2 manning it.