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Sniper PvP Guide by Express


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Darth_Precursor
12.26.2012 , 04:20 PM | #21
Amazing read, really helped me learn about the class more. Thanks.
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Jenzali's Avatar


Jenzali
12.26.2012 , 05:02 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by NoTomorrow View Post
You shouldn't be using snipe outside of MM spec. If you do snipe however, than always take advantage of laze target.
I am confused about this. What other ability would you use as filler for Engineering spec? Your main abilities (Explosive Probe and Series of Shots) both have fairly long cooldowns so there needs to be something to use as filler. Perhaps Fragmentation Grenade does almost as much damage as a Snipe for Engineering, however I would be hesitant to spam an AoE all the time and end up breaking my own and my teammates' roots and mezzes.

I do love Saboteur (Engineering) as my primary spec however outside of the once every 30 seconds (Explosive Probe) the burst and energy management feels to me to be severely lackluster. At least Lethality can Cull, Series of Shots, and Cull again without having to worry about using Snipe as filler, but I don't like using Lethality against good players.

Everyone knows about the notorious Shatter Shot, Corrosive Dart, Interrogation Probe, Plasma Probe, Explosive Probe, Series of Shots burst rotation for Engineering. Sometimes I am even hesitant to use my Plasma Probe after it expires (18 seconds cd, meaning 36 seconds if you use it twice) because it would delay my next big burst rotation by 6 seconds, and the biggest part of Engineering burst requires that your enemy be stunned inside the Plasma Probe while you are detonating Cluster Bombs on your target with Series of Shots. My main question is how an Engineering Sniper should be played between these 30 seconds of powerful burst, and if you decide to use your Plasma Probe on cooldown or save it so that it lines up with Explosive Probe.

Edit: Also what are your thoughts on speccing Heavy Shot with a full Engineering build. I sacrifice one point in the crit talent in Lethality for this additional utility. Also could use some tips on what to do as MM when someone throws their smoke canister on you preventing you from using cover.
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Zoidrinali's Avatar


Zoidrinali
12.26.2012 , 05:53 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Jenzali View Post
Edit: Also what are your thoughts on speccing Heavy Shot with a full Engineering build. I sacrifice one point in the crit talent in Lethality for this additional utility. Also could use some tips on what to do as MM when someone throws their smoke canister on you preventing you from using cover.
I have that in my build dude, I tend to miss it when I don't have it and for me it does add that extra bit of cc into the spec which in my book is always good. Works for me even if it doesn't for anybody else.
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NoTomorrow's Avatar


NoTomorrow
12.26.2012 , 07:51 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Jenzali View Post
I am confused about this. What other ability would you use as filler for Engineering spec? Your main abilities (Explosive Probe and Series of Shots) both have fairly long cooldowns so there needs to be something to use as filler. Perhaps Fragmentation Grenade does almost as much damage as a Snipe for Engineering, however I would be hesitant to spam an AoE all the time and end up breaking my own and my teammates' roots and mezzes.
The problem with snipe in other specs than MM is that it doesn't proc anything, and it's not an instacast. You are basically paying 20 energy for an ability that is quite lackluster in comparison to other tools that Engineering has. I would definetely use grenades in a big zerg on voidstar doors. The thing is, you already have your plasma probe on those guys, with all the AoE arround, there is little chance that any Mezz will hold up. You are safe to throw grenades. Of course, when its a 2-3 ppl skirmish arround the objectives, you dont want to use it.

You are asking what else can you use as a filler attack when you have plasma probe, interrogation probe, explosive prove, series of shots on CD. Well Engineering is a spec drawing A LOT of attention to itself, more often than not you will have to deal will all sort of melee zerg trying to kill you through your all defenses. I found myself that between those Series of Shots, i am not exactly left with much room for fillter attacks due to how often i have to use other controlling abilities like: Cover pulse, legshot, debilitate, shatter shot, all these eat through your global cooldowns, and by the time you are ready to qeue another attack, your SoS is ready to fire again, and then your Interrogation probe is ready, and then Plasma probe and so on.. In fact when i first started to learn engineering, i removed completely snipe from my slot bar. I forced my self to think outside of MMish mentality.

That's the deal about engineering, it has no fixed rotation. in PvE this question is of course very actual, and probably a few snipes here and there could fill it, but i will refrain from analysing PvE rotations and specs in this guide.

Quote:
I do love Saboteur (Engineering) as my primary spec however outside of the once every 30 seconds (Explosive Probe) the burst and energy management feels to me to be severely lackluster. At least Lethality can Cull, Series of Shots, and Cull again without having to worry about using Snipe as filler, but I don't like using Lethality against good players.
Lethality forces you into a completely different mindset, it's very powerful but you will find it requiring either a very low profile, or some huge support from the team. It's a glass cannon at its best. In a straight and fair fight i almost never loose to marauders, DPS juggernauts DPS PTs as MM or Engineering. With lethality it's a different story. This basically means that when i go to reinforce a point on novarre or civil war and i meet one these boys with lethality i am in a much worse spot than with MM or Engi.

Quote:
Everyone knows about the notorious Shatter Shot, Corrosive Dart, Interrogation Probe, Plasma Probe, Explosive Probe, Series of Shots burst rotation for Engineering. Sometimes I am even hesitant to use my Plasma Probe after it expires (18 seconds cd, meaning 36 seconds if you use it twice) because it would delay my next big burst rotation by 6 seconds, and the biggest part of Engineering burst requires that your enemy be stunned inside the Plasma Probe while you are detonating Cluster Bombs on your target with Series of Shots. My main question is how an Engineering Sniper should be played between these 30 seconds of powerful burst, and if you decide to use your Plasma Probe on cooldown or save it so that it lines up with Explosive Probe.
If you can keep the enemy inside the PP for the IP stun duration + extra 2 sec from legshot, the PP has done its job. Most of its damage is frontloaded. Against Melee, this is not a problem at all as they have no choice but to eat all that damage.

As mentioned above, with engineering if you are doing things right, there is always something to do between those 30 seconds of EP CD, it's actually less than 30s because you are still busy detonating the cluster bombs after EP explosion. There is a good reasoning for actually talenting 12s CD on legshots. Your job is to abuse the crap out of this root. Also don;t forget that you have orbital strike. that's another big filler.

I really like what they did to ambush in this game, yeah the MM version has the activation proc, but apart from this and armor pen 20%, MM does't have anything like extra crit chance or extra surge for ambushes, it's base damage is so high that it will always make it highest on max damage.

Oh, again about those fillers, don't forget about Takedown. If i am on my top playing, i find myself having this ability almost always on CD. That's basically another filler attack for your engineering. my TD is situated on most visible place on my screen, if I see it lit up, i press it immediately.


Quote:
Edit: Also what are your thoughts on speccing Heavy Shot with a full Engineering build. I sacrifice one point in the crit talent in Lethality for this additional utility. Also could use some tips on what to do as MM when someone throws their smoke canister on you preventing you from using cover.
I've never taken heavy shot on engineering. Perhaps i should give it a try. It's certainly more useful on MM thanks to having ti more often and activating faster. I don't really feel i am in such a great need of it with engineering.
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Scatter Bombs are meant to be a fun bit of extra damage that occurs when you roll into or away from the action. That said, we’re okay with you trapping an unsuspecting enemy for a “wall bang” every now and then.

NoTomorrow's Avatar


NoTomorrow
12.26.2012 , 09:53 PM | #25
Updated the guide with Sniper vs Sniper matchup review . Sniper vs. Operative, Sorcerers are next.

I could probably also write Snipers vs Rage Marauder, Arsenal and Pyrotech Mercs but i don't have PvP experience with playing Marauders, Juggernauts and Assasins in order to be able to go into details. Someone please help me if you can.
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Scatter Bombs are meant to be a fun bit of extra damage that occurs when you roll into or away from the action. That said, we’re okay with you trapping an unsuspecting enemy for a “wall bang” every now and then.

CJNJ's Avatar


CJNJ
12.26.2012 , 11:06 PM | #26
My personal gripe with taking heavy shot for an engi sniper is the timing when you use it. I'm no expert on snipers, but
here's my 2 cents on it

1. If I have aoes on a spot my biggest buzzkill is when people get knocked right out of the aoes. This really isn't that much of a problem with the front loaded PP, but it's still frustrating when it happens. My favorite is the unlucky moment were try just move before my ambush to get knocked out of my OS just before it lands

2. how viable is a 2.5 second cast for a KB? While it is a nice thing to have I feel we simply do not need it for an engi sniper. We already get a 2 second stun from our normal rotation we use, do we really need another controlling move in our rotations? Not to mention that by the time we get to ambush in a rotation, people usually die at this point in the rotation, unless they happen to have a healer on them, in which you should be on the healer, not that guy.

Sure, the KB on ambush is nice, but I feel that you can put points into better places such as precision ambush or lethality.

CJNJ's Avatar


CJNJ
12.26.2012 , 11:52 PM | #27
Like the new sections. I feel I have a few discrepancies between some of your choices in regards to outcome of the sniper vs sniper, but that will be a different post

do not have a warrior main. All of this is coming from personal experience and research through reading through guides on Both sides of the fight and discussing mechanics with friends who are familiar with the specs(friend had a min/maxed rage jugg pre-1.4, along with many others)

The best spec i feel for maras/juggs in general would be MM. its got everything you need to kill em. Super debuff from diversion(they will be missing that accuracy here), 2 KBs to keep them out of lolsmash range, awesome Entrenched that can last for 2 smashes, and some fantastic burst to really kill em fast. The best thing I can say for a jugg/Mara is to keep them as far away as possible, only fancy things they get are Force Scream and obliterate to use offensively at 10 meter range, so it never hurts not to KB them.

For rage maras as an engi sniper(assuming lethality as well) I usually have an interesting time with them just because I usually have my dots rolling on them at the start of a fight, so I can't effectively CC them through their defensive CDs. I can't root them and keep them away for the 6 seconds to let cloak of pain fall off because IP still has 10 seconds on it and they are standing in my PP, let alone the lethality dots that stay on for like a minute before finally falling off. Can't flashbang them through saber ward because it will just break from my dot or aoes again. I try to make a habit of piping evasion as soon as ravage shows up or if I happen to fall around 30%ish, as Vicious Throw and that last tick of Ravage are the only 2 white damage moves that will really hurt in the spec. Heavy shot is nice here, but with their cloak and that evil 2.5 cast time they easily have enough time to dodge it. I find Juggs easier to handle than maras, sure they can put up alittle more damage but their defensive cooldowns are not as nice tbh, so it's easier to burn through them.

The most important part to me(outside of keeping them far away) is the closer. Both ACs have nasty defensive cooldowns in pvp for that last little push. Undying Rage is awful(as we all have experienced) but with the nerf to it all you need to do is save some resolve for a debilitate(or a PP stun if you don't have the range) and wait it out with some rifle shots and kiting. For Juggs any good one with have endure pain and a warzone medpack(possibly even their trinket)waiting to pop to heal back ups huge chunk of health. Best thing you can do is try to burst or stun them before it happens or be prepared for another layer of meat to peel through.

That's everything I can think of atm, on my iPhone so I probably missed some stuff.

A nice thing I think you should try to add would be a little guide to countering all their CDs that try get. I remember seeing something like this before(maybe in GS forum?) and it would be a great help for people who have trouble with maras/Juggs

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kvandertulip
12.27.2012 , 06:04 AM | #28
Great guide. Lots of useful information for snipers/gunslingers. Personally I prefer this spec for MM.

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#400rcrbbRsRGoZbfZh.2

Siege Bunker is great against all the smash monkeys, but outside of smash it is usually better to move out of the aoe than eat it. My playstyle tends to be more of a semi-mobile MM so this ability gives me limited usefulness.

It might seem odd for a single-target spec to go for more aoe damage, but Explosive Engineering also affects Explosive Probe. That greatly improves your burst and helps to generate yellow damage on heavily armored targets. This gives me up to 4k crits on Explosive Probes. The +10 energy gives me some buffer for the extra Explosive Probes and Orbital Strikes (putting these on top of yourself is a great melee defense).

The 3 second reduction on Leg Shot isn't worth 2 points in my opinion.

Diversion's usefulness is debatable outside dueling other snipers. My strategy is to attack until they toss diversion, run, then comeback and hit them hard when they switch targets. It would be great to have, but I tend to like the small buff to survivability from Cover Screen better.
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NoTomorrow's Avatar


NoTomorrow
12.27.2012 , 08:42 AM | #29
Frankly speaking i think you are trading way too much just for making your one 30s second ability hit 10% harder. I do not belive it's worth it. With MM you have your Ambush, FT and SoS on very short cooldowns, spaming grenades when you could outright kill somebody is not something i would recommend with MM.

As written in the guide, Diversion is not only useful against enemy gunslingers. Assassins are incredibly annoyed when they get a diversion.

In my humble opinion, your build is more useful in PvE.
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Scatter Bombs are meant to be a fun bit of extra damage that occurs when you roll into or away from the action. That said, we’re okay with you trapping an unsuspecting enemy for a “wall bang” every now and then.

CJNJ's Avatar


CJNJ
12.27.2012 , 09:04 AM | #30
Every AC should fear diversion. 9 seconds of ALL accuracy reduced by 45%, lolsmash and sorc/sages will probably be hurt the most because they do not rely on accuracy in their rotations. I laugh when people I use it on get misses with the dots they have ticking on me and I cry when my PP and IP or Mind Crush on my sage start saying miss. As MMs we need to stop saving diversion for just that other sniper, because it is such a great move to use and a waste to not use it