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Suggestions to make the Arsenel Merc/Commando relevant again?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Suggestions to make the Arsenel Merc/Commando relevant again?

Zataos's Avatar


Zataos
12.22.2012 , 02:21 PM | #1
I miss when my Merc didn't have pray I don't get singled out in PVP, the Arsenal spec should be what the Merc is all about but instead it was nerfed into irrelevancy, for those of you that don't know the history of it, early on, the Merc appeared to be pretty OP in warzones, forum rage ensued and they were nerfed, mainly tracer missile and its benefits. The problem was that early on most players did not know how or didn't think it worthy to interrupt channeled abilities, well around the time the Merc was nerfed most players started to use interrupt on a regular basis further nerfing the Arsenal tree which is based around tracer missile (a 2 sec or so channel ability).

My initial suggestion is to make tracer missile a instant ability with a short 2 sec cooldown, or however you can keep it from being a interruptable skill. any other suggestion on how to make Arsenal relevant in pvp again.
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Veovis's Avatar


Veovis
12.22.2012 , 02:45 PM | #2
As much as I'd like my aresneal merc to be more useful in PvP, I think making TM an instant cast would make us far too OP, unless they made the cooldown so long as to make it useless.

Shortening the cast time a bit would be good, though, possibly through skill points. That way, we'd still be ineterruptible, meaning that our effectiveness could still be impacted by other players, but with less of a chance of an interruption being a problem for us, as either we'd get fewer interrupts, or be able to recover from them quicker.
If we don't start soon, George Lucas is gonna change it again
-- Howard Wolowitz

ArchangelLBC's Avatar


ArchangelLBC
12.22.2012 , 03:17 PM | #3
That would be a huge nerf to Commando in PVE for no good reason.


Best idea is a talent in the gunnery tree which adds a "Run and Gun" proc to stockstrike giving you 3 charges which make the next 3 casts (could just make it the next 3 grav rounds/charged bursts) instant.

I think that, along with a reliable escape mechanism, would help the class a lot, wouldn't make us OP, and make us an actual threat in warzones when under fire.

Should probably make curtain of fire make FA uninterruptable as well.
In update 2.9 the game will simply uninstall itself for you.

-Wnd

DkSharktooth's Avatar


DkSharktooth
12.22.2012 , 03:42 PM | #4
Remove all other classes except merc/commando. This is the only fix to make them relevant again. Or just wait till makeb patch because there will be new abilities for all classes. Hopefully they throw us a bone.

cashogy's Avatar


cashogy
12.22.2012 , 04:13 PM | #5
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The Original Stormborn Commando Representative
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Rassuro's Avatar


Rassuro
12.22.2012 , 05:05 PM | #6
My opinion on the Mercenary/Commando class has changed somewhat from what it used to be. After having played a Merc at 50 for a while, I now think that we are less underpowered than what I had originally thought, but there are still some adjustments which should be made. In my opinion, it's not THAT bad.

Pretty much the only times I feel like it's just plain unfair, other than when against a few players of various classes who seem to be very good at their class, is against Warriors. Nerfing the Warriors' anti-ranged effectiveness would probably help Mercs and Sorcs a lot.

Regarding changes directly to the Merc (as opposed to indirectly by nerfing other classes):

- Arsenal already has big damage potential IMO, and might be difficult to balance for PVP. Some sort of idea similar to the Run and Gun idea might be the best.

- Pyro is already in a fairly good place in my opinion. The only thing I'd like to see changed is a talent which gives Power Shot a 100% chance to proc the Cylinder DOT, exactly like how PT's can talent Flame Burst.

Obviously both of the above are after Warriors have been fixed.
Toor, 50 Operative healer | Odaen, 50 Assassin tank | Tiyr, 50 Vanguard tank | Zerofour, 50 Mercenary DPS | The Red Eclipse

ArchangelLBC's Avatar


ArchangelLBC
12.22.2012 , 05:23 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Rassuro View Post
My opinion on the Mercenary/Commando class has changed somewhat from what it used to be. After having played a Merc at 50 for a while, I now think that we are less underpowered than what I had originally thought, but there are still some adjustments which should be made. In my opinion, it's not THAT bad.

Pretty much the only times I feel like it's just plain unfair, other than when against a few players of various classes who seem to be very good at their class, is against Warriors. Nerfing the Warriors' anti-ranged effectiveness would probably help Mercs and Sorcs a lot.

Regarding changes directly to the Merc (as opposed to indirectly by nerfing other classes):

- Arsenal already has big damage potential IMO, and might be difficult to balance for PVP. Some sort of idea similar to the Run and Gun idea might be the best.

- Pyro is already in a fairly good place in my opinion. The only thing I'd like to see changed is a talent which gives Power Shot a 100% chance to proc the Cylinder DOT, exactly like how PT's can talent Flame Burst.

Obviously both of the above are after Warriors have been fixed.
There's no denying that with the lack of team utility, the damage just isn't enough, in either spec, to bring to Rateds. You're either one of the best burst damage specs in the game or you aren't. Pyro PT is. Pypro Merc ain't. Since we DON'T have that kind of insane burst, we need some sort of utility to make us worth bringing, and we don't have that. They made sure that heal classes would have absolute worthless healing when not specced into it, then used the heals as an excuse to short us on utility because BW is full of incompetent idiots who are somehow allowed to determine class balance.

Don't think utility is enough to justify a spot on a ranked team? I give to you bubble spec hybrid. Mediocre damage, mediocre healing, but bubble stun makes it all worth it.

Now the problem with our damage is that its burst is backloaded, and even then it's mostly just steady damage. Absolutely wonderful in PVE where maintaining high DPS is very important. Not nearly as important in PVP where burst is king. ESPECIALLY since the buff we have for Demo Round is based on a debuff on the target, so if they die before the Demo goes out we have to start all over again.

The other big problem with our damage wise is simply our inability to reliably get that damage out under pressure, so even the steady pressure of it becomes pointless.

So we need
a) Ability to get damage out under pressure. Run and Gun is a great example of how to do this

b) Team utility as an argument to bring us along. Even if we could get our damage out reliably why bring us over a sniper? Their burst is better than ours, and Flash Bang is an amazing, game winning ability, and Orbital Strike is good area denial ability, while the group shield is awesome on defense. We bring.....what?
In update 2.9 the game will simply uninstall itself for you.

-Wnd

Rassuro's Avatar


Rassuro
12.22.2012 , 06:02 PM | #8
^ You make some good points (in particular I agree that BW has grossly overestimated the useful all healing classes' heals are when specced as DPS), but we will still disagree on exactly how underpowered the class is, and what it does and doesn't bring. I'm not going to respond to everything because I think you've already made up your mind anyway.

One thing which I'd really like to point out though, is that pretty much every time I see when people discuss the Merc in PVP, the focus is on how to make Arsenal good (and as I wrote I agree that something similar to Run and Gun could be good for that spec).
Keep in mind though that a lot of these Arsenal fixes are focused on fixing problems which do not exist when playing as Pyro.
Toor, 50 Operative healer | Odaen, 50 Assassin tank | Tiyr, 50 Vanguard tank | Zerofour, 50 Mercenary DPS | The Red Eclipse

ArchangelLBC's Avatar


ArchangelLBC
12.22.2012 , 06:55 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Rassuro View Post
^ You make some good points (in particular I agree that BW has grossly overestimated the useful all healing classes' heals are when specced as DPS), but we will still disagree on exactly how underpowered the class is, and what it does and doesn't bring. I'm not going to respond to everything because I think you've already made up your mind anyway.

One thing which I'd really like to point out though, is that pretty much every time I see when people discuss the Merc in PVP, the focus is on how to make Arsenal good (and as I wrote I agree that something similar to Run and Gun could be good for that spec).
Keep in mind though that a lot of these Arsenal fixes are focused on fixing problems which do not exist when playing as Pyro.

Admittedly quite a few of us would prefer to use gunnery for whatever reason.

I disagree that pyro doesn't suffer from many of the same problems. You have an opening whose burst is decent. Not great. Not Assault VG/Pyro PT, but decent.

The problem is you IR > SG > HiB > FA > AP > HiB (75% of the time) which is all well and good and....then what? You need Charged Bolts to reset HiB again, but now you have the same problem as gunnery commando except you probably suffer from more pushback.

Meanwhile you have even less utility, outside of a stealth scan with more uptime, if you even spec into it. Gunnery has the better knockback, has the LOLmeleeroot, and the 70% slow on full auto. Assault has a 30% RNG snare.

Assault is more mobile in the sense that you can run around Hammer Shotting and IRing to put DoTs on everyone which will make for good damage, with the occasional double HiB. You still won't win the DPS race against good burst classes.

Basically you have pretty much all the weaknesses of the VG/PT version with less burst (our HiB does less than theirs), less utility, and generally none of the things that really make that spec and class such a powerful force in warzones.

BTW I've made up my mind, but my professional life, such as it is, mostly consists of learning that I'm wrong and having to change my mind, so I'm all for you debating me. I'll listen, but know I'll dissect all your points looking for the tiniest flaw. That won't mean you're wrong, but I'm still gonna do it.

How exactly underpowered do you think it is? I think it has an extremely steep learning curve at 50 if you want to be viable in normals without just having an absolutely stellar team or facing an absolutely bad one. In ranked, if you're foolish enough to go in as a 50 Commando then the other team should make you almost their first target because of the disparity between the damage when allowed to free cast and the damage when under pressure in any spec.
In update 2.9 the game will simply uninstall itself for you.

-Wnd

ArchangelLBC's Avatar


ArchangelLBC
12.22.2012 , 07:04 PM | #10
Double post.
In update 2.9 the game will simply uninstall itself for you.

-Wnd