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Is Merc worth it?


Kurugi's Avatar


Kurugi
12.24.2012 , 02:05 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Helig View Post
You should cast them if the enemy lets you cast them. Which isn't an awful lot. If you stop to cast, even with no immediate threat to your virtual person, you're instantly a target for 5 Marauders to charge you and smash you into oblivion. Doing what you do while LoS-dancing is a great way of saying "I'm really not worth the trouble to try and target and charge me from the thick melee zone while getting pounded."
Just seems like if you primarily proc PPA from Unload you aren't really taking advantage of the cooldown reset since Unload and RS have the same cooldown, although I may be thinking about it the wrong way. RS -> Unload -> RS with explosives is probably where the burst from Pyro is at. Proccing RS from Power Shot is probably more icing on the cake.

Yeah, that makes more sense when I think about it like that.

Quote: Originally Posted by Helig View Post
I run this, and I'm fully satisfied. Automated Defenses, in my experience, aren't as useful as they seem on paper.
Interesting. Most Pyro builds I see are like 3/7/31.

I would have thought Gyroscopic Alignment Jets would be more beneficial what with all the CC in PvP but I see you opted to skip it. With your liberal usage of Rapid Shots I would have thought Rapid Venting's usefulness would have been diminished. I did want to take Stabilizers but most builds I've seen take Hired Muscle from the Bodyguard tree instead.

Helig's Avatar


Helig
12.24.2012 , 02:42 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Kurugi View Post
Just seems like if you primarily proc PPA from Unload you aren't really taking advantage of the cooldown reset since Unload and RS have the same cooldown, although I may be thinking about it the wrong way. RS -> Unload -> RS with explosives is probably where the burst from Pyro is at. Proccing RS from Power Shot is probably more icing on the cake.

Yeah, that makes more sense when I think about it like that.
Yes, you are correct. Bombs+RS=>Unload=>RS is your bread and butter burst, indeed.

Also, think about it as priorities. Dead DPS don't do damage, it's a well-known fact. Mobility is the key to survivability, and, while you don't have the talent points for a full build yet, I'd advise getting 31 pyro ASAP, because it contains all of your core combat system elements.

About not taking advantage from PS resets - it's true. Merc Pyro is a bit less reliant on RS than PT pyro. One of the reasons for this is much more unwieldy reset system, and considerably less ArP on railshots. But instead you have long range, full mobility, cleansing (a very underrated skill that can remove many snares, roots, dots and some delayed blast skills like explosive probes which hurt a lot for Sab Gunslingers in particular)

So yes, I do see it that way - PS RS resets are icing on the cake.


Quote:
Interesting. Most Pyro builds I see are like 3/7/31.

I would have thought Gyroscopic Alignment Jets would be more beneficial what with all the CC in PvP but I see you opted to skip it. With your liberal usage of Rapid Shots I would have thought Rapid Venting's usefulness would have been diminished. I did want to take Stabilizers but most builds I've seen take Hired Muscle from the Bodyguard tree instead.
Alignment jets are more useful to Bodyguards. Thing is - unlike PT pyro, you don't have a bread-and-butter ammo dump (heat gain) ability like Flame Burst. You don't need the excess heat dump in melee range (because the longest range stuns are 10 meters - the only things you'd benefit from is long-range roots which are available to, like 2 classes, one of them needs what amounts to a pve spec for that). And if something is in your melee range, you don't overheat - you get away. Your kiting skills cost 0 to 8 heat. Knockback, Degauss, stun dart, instant concussive, Sweltering Heat, Triage and LoS-dance.

Yeah, Jets are nice to have. But Degauss is much more valuable. You could exchange Jets for Rapid Venting, I suppose - PTs use it more because Flame Burst is a legitimate overheat burn (pun intended) tool, and Mercs would just use rapid shots instead.

There are options in the build, and quite a few points can be tossed around differently. Like Alacrity instead of Stamina (I still prefer the latter because the former, realistically, only mildly affects PS and LoS heals. And you can get Hired Muscle instead of Stabilizers in Arsenal. Matter of preference and convenience - I prefer Stabilizers, since shots can get pushed back with loose damage flying around, and I'd need to stay in the open more than I want to. But +3% crit makes more sense from a minmaxing standpoint.
"I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!" - Pinkamena Diane Pie

Kurugi's Avatar


Kurugi
12.25.2012 , 12:07 AM | #23
Got to 40 and ran more PvP today. Pyro is a TON of fun. I'm consistently top 3 damage in warzones, and by using Rapid Shots I'm very mobile. I barely use Power Shots, to the point I'm considering taking it off my bar. I think in 4 or 5 warzones I used it maybe 3 times. Waiting for Unload to proc PPA and setting up for burst just seems a lot easier and fluidthan tying to proc PPA as often as possible. Would I do more damage? Probably. I probably should use PS more often than I am, but I find by the time I get my CGC up from Rapid Shots it's time to do my burst rotation again.

Helig's Avatar


Helig
12.25.2012 , 02:07 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Kurugi View Post
Got to 40 and ran more PvP today. Pyro is a TON of fun. I'm consistently top 3 damage in warzones, and by using Rapid Shots I'm very mobile. I barely use Power Shots, to the point I'm considering taking it off my bar. I think in 4 or 5 warzones I used it maybe 3 times. Waiting for Unload to proc PPA and setting up for burst just seems a lot easier and fluidthan tying to proc PPA as often as possible. Would I do more damage? Probably. I probably should use PS more often than I am, but I find by the time I get my CGC up from Rapid Shots it's time to do my burst rotation again.
Glad you enjoy it like I do.

Have fun!
"I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!" - Pinkamena Diane Pie

Aaoogaa's Avatar


Aaoogaa
12.25.2012 , 02:17 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Kurugi View Post
Got to 40 and ran more PvP today. Pyro is a TON of fun. I'm consistently top 3 damage in warzones, and by using Rapid Shots I'm very mobile. I barely use Power Shots, to the point I'm considering taking it off my bar. I think in 4 or 5 warzones I used it maybe 3 times. Waiting for Unload to proc PPA and setting up for burst just seems a lot easier and fluidthan tying to proc PPA as often as possible. Would I do more damage? Probably. I probably should use PS more often than I am, but I find by the time I get my CGC up from Rapid Shots it's time to do my burst rotation again.
This is the problem. At 40 it is fun but at 50 when the player base gets better overall you will find good players waiting for your unload to interrupt ruining your burst potential. You will not be able to use power shot for the same reasons as above...a vanguard can lock you out of any channeled ability for over 20 seconds forcing you to rely on rapid shots, your dot, grenades and your punch. They get to use every ability they have without worry. One jedi will be able to destroy you with very little effort. You have fun now thinking to yourself man what a great class and then hit 50 pvp and grind the gear only to find out that the class is average when played flawlessly...when you could be playing vanguard assault for much greater effect. Yes, you will have a good game every once in awhile...but play an AC where every game is a good game.

Quote:
So yes, I do see it that way - PS RS resets are icing on the cake.
Actually they are the cake or lack there of in the merc's case. While a Powertech can fairly reliably max our a 3 second burst in the 17k range on the move the merc cannot.
-I would rather pay for a great game than play a poor game for free.
-Viable and worthwhile are not the same when it comes to class design.
55 Commando - 50 Gunslinger - 50 Guardian
Beta tester...loved the game, hate what it has become.

Kurugi's Avatar


Kurugi
12.25.2012 , 02:37 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Aaoogaa View Post
This is the problem. At 40 it is fun but at 50 when the player base gets better overall you will find good players waiting for your unload to interrupt ruining your burst potential. You will not be able to use power shot for the same reasons as above...a vanguard can lock you out of any channeled ability for over 20 seconds forcing you to rely on rapid shots, your dot, grenades and your punch. They get to use every ability they have without worry. One jedi will be able to destroy you with very little effort. You have fun now thinking to yourself man what a great class and then hit 50 pvp and grind the gear only to find out that the class is average when played flawlessly...when you could be playing vanguard assault for much greater effect. Yes, you will have a good game every once in awhile...but play an AC where every game is a good game.


Actually they are the cake or lack there of in the merc's case. While a Powertech can fairly reliably max our a 3 second burst in the 17k range on the move the merc cannot.
I don't get people like you. You sulk around the forums trying to bring down anyone and everyone having a little sliver of fun with the class down. Why? Because you're butthurt at the current state of Mercs and have to make sure everyone is as miserable as you are? Why can't you just let the people who want to discuss and make the best of what they can do that and go on your way?

Oh, right because misery loves company...

Aaoogaa's Avatar


Aaoogaa
12.25.2012 , 02:48 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Kurugi View Post
I don't get people like you. You sulk around the forums trying to bring down anyone and everyone having a little sliver of fun with the class down. Why? Because you're butthurt at the current state of Mercs and have to make sure everyone is as miserable as you are? Why can't you just let the people who want to discuss and make the best of what they can do that and go on your way?

Oh, right because misery loves company...
He asked a question and I answered it. I quoted you because it points out the issue for some with the class great early on leading to a false sense of the class for later on. He didn't ask me to give him lolly pops and flowers...the current state of the merc in PVP at level 50 is sub par to many other ACs. There isn't much to argue with there.

The sub 50 game mercs are fun...I am leveling a merc right now as a matter of fact and generally score double the damage of most in the warzone (due to experience I have leveling a commando). Once I hit 50 he will get shelved because I have no urge to do that grind again for pvp.

Pyro would do better if BW allowed mercs to proc HIB (edit- sorry CGC...trying to keep lingo merc oriented) off of punch like powertechs (a suggestion I have made that would put this spec on even footing) but currently in 50 pvp without this ability they are not as competative as powertech pyro. This is the difference between the 17k burst the powertech can put out and the so so damage the merc puts out.


I am glad that you think your opinion is greater than mine, but I was responding to the op in my post not to the banter happening in the thread..except for the last quote.

Oh and on the positive side merc is amazing for PVE...there not all negative.
-I would rather pay for a great game than play a poor game for free.
-Viable and worthwhile are not the same when it comes to class design.
55 Commando - 50 Gunslinger - 50 Guardian
Beta tester...loved the game, hate what it has become.

Kurugi's Avatar


Kurugi
12.25.2012 , 03:03 AM | #28
Fair enough. I forgot the original topic was about something else and I kinda hijacked the thread a bit.You quoted my post so I thought you were addressing me. My mistake.

As an avid MMO player of 8 years my advice to the OP then would be to never. Never. NEVER choose your class based on current game balance.

EVER

Why? Because MMOs are dynamic. They never stay the same. For example, lets say you choose to play PT over Merc simply because PTs are in a better spot PvP wise. Now, while you're leveling, a major balance patch is released that buffs Mercs and makes them quite good in PvP all of a sudden, and PTs received a couple of nerfs but are still viable, albeit not as desirable. Well now what do you do? Continue to level the PT even though they aren't as good or reroll as a Merc this time?

I chose Merc over PT for 2 reasons, and 2 reasons only:

1. I wanted to play range

2. 2 guns are cooler than 1

That's it. End of list. I was aware Mercs weren't in the best spot in PvP but it had no bearing on my decision because choosing your class based on playstyle mechanics and aesthetics ALWAYS ends up trumping going for what's considered "overpowered", because power always ends up changing hands eventually.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aaoogaa View Post
Pyro would do better if BW allowed mercs to proc HIB (edit- sorry CGC...trying to keep lingo merc oriented) off of punch like powertechs (a suggestion I have made that would put this spec on even footing) but currently in 50 pvp without this ability they are not as competative as powertech pyro. This is the difference between the 17k burst the powertech can put out and the so so damage the merc puts out.
Actually the ability you're thinking of is Rail Shot.

That change doesn't really make sense for the class fundamentally speaking since you're essentially looking to force a ranged class, that generally wants to keep as great a distance from its enemies as possible, to have the main proc of one of its specs tied to an ability that only has a 4m range. While it is an instant ability I don't think it would translate smoothly in actual gameplay.

Personally, it doesn't sting as much if/when Unload gets interrupted as a Pyro Merc, since the main reason I use Unload in the first place is to proc PPA, and whether or not it procs is determined as soon as the ability is activated. If I can get the full Unload off I just look at that as bonus damage, but that's just me, and yes I realize I'm just looking for the silver lining in an unideal situation here.

Arsenal on the other hand suffers a lot more from interrupted Unloads...

Aaoogaa's Avatar


Aaoogaa
12.25.2012 , 03:16 AM | #29
Quote:
Actually the ability you're thinking of is Rail Shot.

That change doesn't really make sense for the class fundamentally speaking since you're essentially looking to force a ranged class, that generally wants to keep as great a distance from it's enemies as possible, to have the main proc of one of it's specs tied to an ability that only has a 4m range. While it is an instant ability I don't think it would translate smoothly in actual gameplay.

Personally, it doesn't sting as much if/when Unload gets interrupted as a Pyro Merc, since the main reason I use Unload in the first place is to proc PPA, and whether or not it procs is determined as soon as the ability is activated. If I can get the full Unload off I just look at that as bonus damage, but that's just me.

Arsenal on the other hand suffers a lot more from interrupted Unloads...
I would only add in the ability for rail shot to proc off rocket punch along with unload and power shot. This would allow them to maintain their burst in melee where they are lacking due to interrupts. At range I agree there is no issue with pyro...but things break down when in melee and that is where the class is lacking. The abilitiy to deliver reliable damage when needed in melee range. Arsenal suffers because all of their burst is on the back end of their channeled abilities...if you can never channel you cannot deliver the burst.

On the first part of your reply I prefer merc over commando visually because of the multiple weapons systems the merc has vs. all commando shots coming from one cannon...commando just looks idiotic firing everything from one weapon. So I run gunnery/arsenal on my commando and and running pyro on my merc and he looks good doing it.
-I would rather pay for a great game than play a poor game for free.
-Viable and worthwhile are not the same when it comes to class design.
55 Commando - 50 Gunslinger - 50 Guardian
Beta tester...loved the game, hate what it has become.

iDraxter's Avatar


iDraxter
12.25.2012 , 07:24 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Kurugi View Post
Got to 40 and ran more PvP today. Pyro is a TON of fun. I'm consistently top 3 damage in warzones, and by using Rapid Shots I'm very mobile. I barely use Power Shots, to the point I'm considering taking it off my bar. I think in 4 or 5 warzones I used it maybe 3 times. Waiting for Unload to proc PPA and setting up for burst just seems a lot easier and fluidthan tying to proc PPA as often as possible. Would I do more damage? Probably. I probably should use PS more often than I am, but I find by the time I get my CGC up from Rapid Shots it's time to do my burst rotation again.
my god.....pre 50 does not matter u can own 90% of enemies with anyclass in 10-49 bracket, reminds me of another guy that posted ,,I play a lvl 20 something merc and i melt ppl, merc is fine" O_O aham; now I`m really curious myself to see what they add to each skill tree in the expansion or even if they finally change something in the next patch
Firebat: Wanna turn up the heat?
It`s your money-but if I have spent as much time killing Jedi instead of your own kind...you might be winning this war