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Zorn and Toth enrage timer issues on HM


CountOryansen's Avatar


CountOryansen
12.16.2012 , 09:14 PM | #1
We are consistently hitting the enrage timer on HM .
The WHOLE group has full BH augmented.
Melee dps are backing out during Toth's frenzy, tanks are tank swapping, no one is getting hit in the red circle phase, cleanse is going off immediately, bosses are far enough apart, fearful debuff is under control.
WHAT IS GOING ON!>!?!?!?!?!

My reason is if we constantly get to 10% on both and hit the enrage every time we are missing some dps.

ideas?

Count Dooku: It is obvious that this contest cannot be decided by our knowledge of the Force... but by our skills with a lightsaber.

Dacce's Avatar


Dacce
12.16.2012 , 09:17 PM | #2
Our group used to do Toth with a sorc healer and melee and sorc would stand in the frenzy getting healing by the puddle. but if you are still getting enrage from Zorn, I'd say you need to get your dps better gear. are they optimised and augmented rakata / blackhole? or just straight normal rakata?
Visage - Dace - Fat'Clam - Fistula - Shimini - Malikada

grallmate's Avatar


grallmate
12.16.2012 , 09:23 PM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by CountOryansen View Post
We are consistently hitting the enrage timer on HM .
The WHOLE group has full BH augmented.
Melee dps are backing out during Toth's frenzy, tanks are tank swapping, no one is getting hit in the red circle phase, cleanse is going off immediately, bosses are far enough apart, fearful debuff is under control.
WHAT IS GOING ON!>!?!?!?!?!

My reason is if we constantly get to 10% on both and hit the enrage every time we are missing some dps.

ideas?
First of all, I hope this doesn't come across too harsh. We spent a while on HM Toth and Zorn and only really got the rest instance down pat a couple of weeks after TFB hit. HM EC is a tough instance, its very mechanic heavy and punishing. A huge step up from even NiM EV or KP and its ok to have trouble with it, I know plenty of people who are still working on it.

Honestly, gear is not even close to an indication of good DPS. I've seen fresh 50s in Recruit blow BH geared DPS out of the water. Get all your DPS to run a couple of parses and see how they measure up to each other so you know who needs work.

With your strat, the only way I can see you guys getting more DPS is by swapping the melee on Zorn when Toth is Frenzying rather than having them stand out. Also make sure all DPS are popping their relics and adrenals.
The Kae-Sare Legacy - The Harbinger
<Vindication> <Retribution>

Gralleh Grall'eh Khyar
Gralleh's Guide to Guardian Tanking [UPDATED for 2.0]

CJAShadow's Avatar


CJAShadow
12.17.2012 , 02:47 AM | #4
Honestly, for my guild who has the same problem, its Itemization and a slight rotation problem. I personally can't coach on rotation but correct Itemization is a big problem for some people who are not.... Algebraically inclined. Thats not saying they arent smart, its just they dont look at numbers the same way.

Rakata gear from mods/enhancements/Armorings is sometimes better then BH gear. Many dps class BH sets *cough Guardian cough* is not balanced correctly.

What I mean by that is that the Mods from BH gear does not have the stats that you want, even though its the next tier of gear.

For example, many Armorings have endurance as their highest stat. That is good for Tanks, not good for dps. If you have the incorrect Endurance armorings on a dps class, you could be losing 100-200 of your mainstat if you just leave the Endurance armorings in. If you swap them out, then swap out other pieces of gear that had high endurance, your mainstat could go up possibly 500 points.

There was a sentinel in my guild that has all BH gear, but he has lower strength and power as well as imbalanced crit and surge compared to my columi/rakata guardian. Why? Cause I mix and matched my gear while he just kept taking the next armor upgrade depending on the set "name".

Look at the stats, not at the name on the gear.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lock- Master Zhar Lestin
Cyann- Harbinger

Raekor's Avatar


Raekor
12.17.2012 , 03:14 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by CountOryansen View Post
We are consistently hitting the enrage timer on HM .
The WHOLE group has full BH augmented.
Melee dps are backing out during Toth's frenzy, tanks are tank swapping, no one is getting hit in the red circle phase, cleanse is going off immediately, bosses are far enough apart, fearful debuff is under control.
WHAT IS GOING ON!>!?!?!?!?!

My reason is if we constantly get to 10% on both and hit the enrage every time we are missing some dps.

ideas?
Are you actually hitting the enrage timer, or are you hitting the sub 10% and death soft enrages?

Both of their damage is increased sub 10%, so after the swap we all turn and kill Toth. With the Toth dead Zorn gets an additional buff, which will smash a fully itemised Dreadguard tank. What you need to do is taunt swap and and kite him whilst the DPS finish him off. Then you just have the handler to kill. Just need to face him away from the rest of the op's group.

Vankris's Avatar


Vankris
12.17.2012 , 04:30 AM | #6
in these type of situation, best is to have a combatlog of your group.
Ask your raider to submit their combat log to a site that merge them (such as askmrrobot) and analyse the log.

It's hard to say where the problem come from, if correctly optimise, a full augmented BH group should easily meet the DPS requirement, whatever the class composition may be, the encounter is balance around rakata gear.

Lack of DPS could come from
- incorrect stats priority on individual
- incorrect or imperfect rotation
- non optimized boss strategy.


Some tips
- make sure to put all dps in the same group to take advantage of the inspiration/bloodlust
- make sure, you have no stop dps included in your strat, including the 60 and 20% spike phase.
- make sure you have all debuff (armor debuff) and buff in your group.
- make sure everyone using stim and adrenal.
- Practice DPS on the move.
Shadow | Kinetic Combat

Dassem's Avatar


Dassem
12.17.2012 , 05:24 AM | #7
I can give you the perspective of a Mara on this fight and I'd advise against the meele dps moving away from Toth at any point during the fight. The only reason I ever come of Toth is if his % in comparison to Zorn is to low and at that point I normally jump to Zorn to help out as I rarely have fearful.

As a meele imo you lose far to much time if you come out during Toth beserks, my advice for the meele is to pop Saber Ward just before he does so and that should eat up a fair chunk of Toth's first beserk stomp. After that keep up cloak of pain as much as you can and even be ready to use Undying rage if healing is that much of a issue during that phase. Best option healing wise is to have a Sorc put down an aoe healing circle next to Toth for the meele to loiter in.
Caladen <Choices Matter> Red Eclipse

Hovergame's Avatar


Hovergame
12.17.2012 , 08:36 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by CountOryansen View Post
We are consistently hitting the enrage timer on HM .
The WHOLE group has full BH augmented.
Melee dps are backing out during Toth's frenzy, tanks are tank swapping, no one is getting hit in the red circle phase, cleanse is going off immediately, bosses are far enough apart, fearful debuff is under control.
WHAT IS GOING ON!>!?!?!?!?!

My reason is if we constantly get to 10% on both and hit the enrage every time we are missing some dps.

ideas?
Get moxparser for your 4 DPS. Check the DPS after the fight (you can use torparse). Any DPS < 1200 is a problem, and should optimize their stuff/gameplay.

Thundergulch's Avatar


Thundergulch
12.17.2012 , 09:32 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by CountOryansen View Post
We are consistently hitting the enrage timer on HM .
The WHOLE group has full BH augmented.
Without seeing the stats on your players, it's hard to say that you're geared correctly.
Just having full BH augmented gear doesn't mean your'e any good (not trying to sound harsh).
That being said, this fight can easily be a pain, keep at it, make sure your dps players are putting out enough dps and you'll get it.

SturmUndSterne's Avatar


SturmUndSterne
12.17.2012 , 11:58 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Thundergulch View Post
Without seeing the stats on your players, it's hard to say that you're geared correctly.
Just having full BH augmented gear doesn't mean your'e any good (not trying to sound harsh).
That being said, this fight can easily be a pain, keep at it, make sure your dps players are putting out enough dps and you'll get it.
Furthermore, if they're all in full BH augmented, not one of them has a set bonus. That detracts somewhat from your class.

Itemization with BH is the way to go, not just "I have blackhole" ... 90% of BH gear requires two or even 3 pieces to get the correct effects for your spec and class.