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Kaggath Series: Darth Sidious vs Sith Emperor

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Series: Darth Sidious vs Sith Emperor

internaty's Avatar


internaty
12.20.2012 , 07:48 AM | #311
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
Like Beni said: Japan didn't have force users. OR a Emperor who can pretty much brainwash anyone (save Sidiious in this Kaggath).

But I wouldn't say Japan was stronger then the USA. Like you said, industrial might is a big factor.

Also: A Japan to America WW2 analogy doesn't quite sum up the SE vs the GE.
And as i said: force user isnt instant win.
The force is all-powerfull in star wars.
But force users arent the force.

Let me put this into perspective.
How many sith do we kill in swtor every day(from story perspective)
How many normal people?
Alot.
And we are plot armor wearing dimigods.

How many sith and jedi did revan kill?
How many did darth vadar or clone/storm troopers kill?

When you think of a jedi or sith.
Who do you think of?
Luke skywalker, obi-one kenboi-darth sidous?
Or random jedi on screen for 2 seconds who got shot in the back?
Revenge of the sith showed how easy it is the kill jedi or sith.
HK-47: if i see one more meatbag attacking jedi with a blaster i kill him myself.

Rocket's granade's posion dart's etc all effective against jedi.
There are even people who hunt jedi for sport.

Let me put this into perspective.
How many people you know in real life can defeat a shoa-lin monk?
Not many.
Now how many armies in the world can?
Suddenly there not so thought.
Why?
Because most of us never expect to fight agains a sheo-lin monk.
Yet a group of soldiers can easly kill them(unless the strike from stealth but lets not go there)

The force doesnt make one invinsibol(plot armor does)
Long versions short having nuke's doesnt make you a super power: having influence does.
For example: russia has alot of nuke's yet most of us dont consider russia a super power.
A nuclear threat yes but we dont give a rats *** about what they think aslong it doesnt invole us getting nuked.

Like wise having force powers doesnt make you uber baddass. it just makes you harder to kill.
knowledge is power.
use it well.

Good players take any and all advantages they can get, actually. It's why they are good.

internaty's Avatar


internaty
12.20.2012 , 07:52 AM | #312
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
You make some good points: but I'm confused. Are you comparing the SE to Japan or America? I thought you were comparing them to Japan until you said that the allies lost more soldiers during the war and then said that was why the GE would win. I'm confused.
Sith empire(japan) vs galatic empire(amarica)

I keep repeating this.
In a war of attritation the sith empire losses.
The only way for the sith empire to win a war of attriation is by turning alot of the galatic empire agains itself.
knowledge is power.
use it well.

Good players take any and all advantages they can get, actually. It's why they are good.

internaty's Avatar


internaty
12.20.2012 , 07:53 AM | #313
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Remember the Sith Code?

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion I gain strength.
Through strength I gain power.
Through power I gain victory.
Through victory my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

The Sith do not and never will, 'want a break'. Peace is a lie to them, they feed of war and the passion it brings. Fighting only makes them exponentially stronger while Jedi grow weaker as they rely on serenity to draw on the light side of the Force. While the Sith feed of passions and off war. Malgus even believed that the only way the Sith could survive was through perpetual war. Perhaps Sith troopers will be encouraged to defect, but no more that a Stormtrooper would - if not less, as everyone in the SE is trained to be fanatically loyal to the Emperor.
Even so if you love war woudnt you fight for the one who offer's more?
knowledge is power.
use it well.

Good players take any and all advantages they can get, actually. It's why they are good.

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
12.20.2012 , 07:53 AM | #314
Quote: Originally Posted by internaty View Post
That is the enitre point:
Unless the sith empire can hit several key target's in close succesion and without fail(aka humany impossibol)
Target's like kuat, corosant, the emperor, every last moff, and certian target's forbidden for this topic.
If you miss even one target you will have your war of attrition.

You have to sirously cripple the galatic empire befor the war even start's(something the sith emperor is good at) in order to stand a fair chance.

Far more likely is that lord videan(i believe the sith emperor's name is) is to simply wait for darth sideus to die of old age of have him assasinted then take over his empire.


True when sith are focus they become deadly.
But how many years of war can a sith endure?
Even the most bloodlust driving sith will after years of slaughter consider to change side just for a break.
Let me put this image into your mind:
You have bin killing enemies for years, you bin into deserts, tropic's forest, underwater fights, you name it you bin there. and everywhere you go it is the same thing. the same enemies, the same planet your going to retake a few month's from now. Your only break's are between fight's and gaurd duty.

Now the enemy is offering you a full pardonship of all your crime's against them,
A life in luxery after the war, double your current pay. all for the small price of changing side.
Now it take's a extreemly loyal person to remain loyal to something after suffering for it for many years.

It is the reson why so many jedi are easy to turn.
They are offered to go from servant of the people of the republic to lord and master of your own piece of land.
It is easy to be loyal when everything is well and good.
But every war has its traitor's and sith care for power, not bloodshed in general.
The GE is not THAT much bigger then the SE. At least, they're not big enough to counter the Sith. Here's what the Sith do:
- fight like hell
- they're the BEST commanders due to abilities like precognition

This war would be like Anakin podracing against all those othere aliens. Without the force, he'd have lost big time. But guess what? He did have the force. And he was unstoppable. He saw things coming.

Imagine all the SIth Commanders. There will be one at the helm of every ship commanding the vessel. They're gonna see things coming and they're gonna react to the GE's plans with great speed. They're gonna be able to inflict some serious damage on the GE.

Then there's Vitaite's mind control. Imagine him capturing one of Sidious's promenint Moffs. Vitiate brainwashes the Moff and then ransoms him back to the GE. Vitaite makes a ton of money and now has a weapon with which he can inflict a lot of internal damage on the GE.

internaty's Avatar


internaty
12.20.2012 , 07:55 AM | #315
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
The GE is not THAT much bigger then the SE. At least, they're not big enough to counter the Sith. Here's what the Sith do:
- fight like hell
- they're the BEST commanders due to abilities like precognition

This war would be like Anakin podracing against all those othere aliens. Without the force, he'd have lost big time. But guess what? He did have the force. And he was unstoppable. He saw things coming.

Imagine all the SIth Commanders. There will be one at the helm of every ship commanding the vessel. They're gonna see things coming and they're gonna react to the GE's plans with great speed. They're gonna be able to inflict some serious damage on the GE.

Then there's Vitaite's mind control. Imagine him capturing one of Sidious's promenint Moffs. Vitiate brainwashes the Moff and then ransoms him back to the GE. Vitaite makes a ton of money and now has a weapon with which he can inflict a lot of internal damage on the GE.
As i keep saying not all sith are as strong as the heroes you keep brining up.
Tho the moff is a good idea.
knowledge is power.
use it well.

Good players take any and all advantages they can get, actually. It's why they are good.

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
12.20.2012 , 07:59 AM | #316
Alright Beni: it's time to make your decision. At this point I don't think there's anything left to add to our debate.

konstadinosblue's Avatar


konstadinosblue
12.20.2012 , 09:00 AM | #317
in a final opinion I believe that Sith Emperor's magic would overcome Sidious.The GE would win in space combat
but lose in ground combat.In the end I believe that the SE and the emperor would barely win...
Ahsoka: "Well, you want the bad news, or the really bad news?"
Obi-Wan: "Well, let's try the bad news laced with a little optimism."
―Ahsoka Tano and Obi-Wan Kenobi, attempting to flee from Mortis

Vacarius's Avatar


Vacarius
12.20.2012 , 09:08 AM | #318
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
The GE is not THAT much bigger then the SE. At least, they're not big enough to counter the Sith. Here's what the Sith do:
- fight like hell
- they're the BEST commanders due to abilities like precognition

This war would be like Anakin podracing against all those othere aliens. Without the force, he'd have lost big time. But guess what? He did have the force. And he was unstoppable. He saw things coming.

Imagine all the SIth Commanders. There will be one at the helm of every ship commanding the vessel. They're gonna see things coming and they're gonna react to the GE's plans with great speed. They're gonna be able to inflict some serious damage on the GE.

Then there's Vitaite's mind control. Imagine him capturing one of Sidious's promenint Moffs. Vitiate brainwashes the Moff and then ransoms him back to the GE. Vitaite makes a ton of money and now has a weapon with which he can inflict a lot of internal damage on the GE.
To use game terms, you seem to be using the 31/31/31 build there Only exceptional sith have those abilities, your average glowstick won't.

The Ascendant Spear seems to be a ridiculously powerful super weapon from what we've heard, able to solo planetary defense systems all on its own, a bit unfair on the GE given what they've had excluded. Regardless, if the Spear was such a threat I think Palpatine would be perfectly happy to sacrifice an interdictor and a fleet to use a force storm and destroy the thing. Even if this didn't happen, it would still be destroyed if up against the GE's full might. Any ship, no matter how fast, cannot dodge tens of thousands of laser bolts. We've seen TIE fighters hit the falcon quite easily, I see no reason why swarms of TIEs couldn't slow/destroy the spear enough for the SDs to vaporise it.

Territory
Who owns x% of the galaxy is entirely irrelevant. Owning a planet is always a negative unless it provides economic or strategic benefit, otherwise forces are wasted defending it. Given the blitzkrieg tactics of the SE, much of their territory is 'theirs' but not under their control, they must contend with a hostile populace, begin extracting resources, and utilizing infrastructure. This takes time and is highly inefficient compared with 'controlled' planets. Thus, we can't really consider the benefit of these new planets until a few years pass, and the GE steamroller takes over.

X years of preparation
Also largely irrelevant. Nations have been funding for year for millenia, yet we don't have swordsmen in our armies any more. As time passes technology becomes obsolete and is replaced, meaning that in terms of size the SE fleet cannot be considered what they could build in 1000 years as most of this will have been replaced. Realistically, they've probably only been using the ships they used to invade with for about a decade or so sticking them at a significant disadvantage size wise (since technological gains don't count in this). Also note that they are limited by their population, as far as I know humans don't live 1000 years in star wars, so they're stuck with the population of the time they invade with. Conscription will help, but actual recruiting will be hindered as they first have to control and then indoctrinate the planets they capture. While the SE may be better than the GE for aliens, is it good enough for them to want to die for it? I think not.

The Rebels won...

Well, yeah. Note however that the Battle of Endor was between a comparatively small (athough significant) portion of the GE fleet and the entire rebel fleet. Had the entire GE fleet been used, the rebels would have been crushed like a bug. It was a trap that went bad due to the emperor's overconfidence, against a fellow sith lord I doubt he would make this mistake.

Everthing I can think of atm
Seikier - Operative Healer
Officer of Nightmare Council

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
12.20.2012 , 11:47 AM | #319
Quote: Originally Posted by Vacarius View Post
To use game terms, you seem to be using the 31/31/31 build there Only exceptional sith have those abilities, your average glowstick won't.

The Ascendant Spear seems to be a ridiculously powerful super weapon from what we've heard, able to solo planetary defense systems all on its own, a bit unfair on the GE given what they've had excluded. Regardless, if the Spear was such a threat I think Palpatine would be perfectly happy to sacrifice an interdictor and a fleet to use a force storm and destroy the thing. Even if this didn't happen, it would still be destroyed if up against the GE's full might. Any ship, no matter how fast, cannot dodge tens of thousands of laser bolts. We've seen TIE fighters hit the falcon quite easily, I see no reason why swarms of TIEs couldn't slow/destroy the spear enough for the SDs to vaporise it.
Whether it is a 'superweapon' or not is debatable. It certainly doesn't compare the the Death Star or the Galaxy Gun. And according to many people here the Executor and other SSDs could take out the Ascendant Spear. So if the Spear is banned, I would have to ban the Executor and SSDs as well. But I decided to deem both able to fight.

And then Forces storms - I'm afraid this falls into the category of 'superweapon', not only is the ability to rip holes in the space-time continuum to create massive wormholes, capable of transporting ships across thousands of light years or tear them apart, and devastate entire planets, and transport the user forward in time,completely ridiculous and flying in the face of all established canon, but its more powerful than 10 Death Stars combined and is basically an insta-win button in every and any duel. Banned, banned, banned. What next EU writers? Time tra- oh wait you've done that one... :P

Quote:
Territory
Who owns x% of the galaxy is entirely irrelevant. Owning a planet is always a negative unless it provides economic or strategic benefit, otherwise forces are wasted defending it. Given the blitzkrieg tactics of the SE, much of their territory is 'theirs' but not under their control, they must contend with a hostile populace, begin extracting resources, and utilizing infrastructure. This takes time and is highly inefficient compared with 'controlled' planets. Thus, we can't really consider the benefit of these new planets until a few years pass, and the GE steamroller takes over
This however is an excellent point. I suppose it ties in with infrastructure but it certainly adds to the argument. The GE has planets that have been under Imperial/Republic control for decades if not centuries in some cases which means their resources and political structure are firmly under control. The situation on the SE side however, with only a large strip of the outer rim under firm control, and the rest recently conquered, is going to be more volatile. The SE will have to use resources on maintaining these planets and strengthening them. However the GE will have to contend with insurrection instigated by the SE.

Quote:
X years of preparation
Also largely irrelevant. Nations have been funding for year for millenia, yet we don't have swordsmen in our armies any more. As time passes technology becomes obsolete and is replaced, meaning that in terms of size the SE fleet cannot be considered what they could build in 1000 years as most of this will have been replaced. Realistically, they've probably only been using the ships they used to invade with for about a decade or so sticking them at a significant disadvantage size wise (since technological gains don't count in this). Also note that they are limited by their population, as far as I know humans don't live 1000 years in star wars, so they're stuck with the population of the time they invade with. Conscription will help, but actual recruiting will be hindered as they first have to control and then indoctrinate the planets they capture. While the SE may be better than the GE for aliens, is it good enough for them to want to die for it? I think not.
Not so, this only really applies to the GE who have only had SDs and SSDs for 10 or so years. The Harrower class dreadnought (the vanguard of the imperial navy) was designed by Odile Vaiken only decades after the SE settled on Dromund Kaas. So it has been in the Imperial Navy for over a 1000 years and likely improved upon and perfected over that period. The same can be said of their fighters. Unlike the TIE-series fighter which only ever had one design (other designs never got past experimental stage to my knowledge) the Supermacy-class starfighter had reached Mark VI. So we can assume the design has been perfected over 1000 years to be the paragon of starfighter technology possible at the time and on a mass produceable scale. While the Harrower was the paragon of dreadnought technology at the time.
Quote:
The Rebels won...
Well, yeah. Note however that the Battle of Endor was between a comparatively small (athough significant) portion of the GE fleet and the entire rebel fleet. Had the entire GE fleet been used, the rebels would have been crushed like a bug. It was a trap that went bad due to the emperor's overconfidence, against a fellow sith lord I doubt he would make this mistake.
Well, the fleet protecting Endor was massive - excessive even. I don't think you could have been more overprepared. If he had any more they be bumping into each other, literally (you can't fit 20,000 SDs and 30 SSDs over one planet)

We're talking the Vader and Sidious (with full on battle meditation), the Death Star II, the Executor, a communications ship, 2 battlecruisers, 34 SDs and hundreds of starfighters.

SoonerJBD's Avatar


SoonerJBD
12.20.2012 , 11:56 AM | #320
Just throwing this out again... The Sith Empire couldn't take the galaxy from a relatively weak Republic in the TOR era. The sacking of Coruscant wasn't a true invasion. They never held the planet. If they couldn't overtake the Republic in their own era, they are NEVER going to take defeat the Galactic Empire, which is much larger and has far more resources.

Also, I don't possibly see how the Emperor would be subject to orbital bombardment. He certainly has an emergency bunker or some sort of contingency plan for that. And that is putting aside the fact that defeating the planet's defenses and deactivating the planetary shield is a lot tougher than "magic brainwashing, abracadabra!"