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Kaggath Series: Darth Sidious vs Sith Emperor

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Series: Darth Sidious vs Sith Emperor

Maaruin's Avatar


Maaruin
12.20.2012 , 05:33 AM | #301
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I respect your opinion, but this example isn't the best - seeings as Japan did not have force users

If anything it works the other way. Japan is stronger than the USA (I don't know if thats fact but I'll take your word for it) much like the GE is statistically stronger than the SE. However the USA had nuclear bombs, which they dropped on Nagazaki and Hiroshima (which was disgusting by the way, just saying) and ended the war. These nuclear bombs represent the Force and its tremendous power. So the force users of the SE are going to be like dropping bombs on Japan. But thats just how I see it.
Actually, Japan had already lost the war on grand scale when the nuclear bombs were dropped. At that point of the war it was only a question about how to end the war: atom bomb them to surrender, starve them with a sea blockade or invade the Japanese main island.

I agree with internaty that the Galactic Empire's industrial capacity will be a huge advantage. If the SE should win the war, it has to win it fast. In a war of attrition, the GE will inevitably gain the upper hand.


Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
I don't understand why we can't just take the map for what it is: the SE controled 7/11 (or 63.6 percent) of the galaxy.
It doesn't seem like it controlled every planet of these 63.6%. You see in Tor that there are a lot of independent planets in between. All in all, I get the impression that after the treaty of Coruscant when it comes to direct control the Republic controls around 25% and the Empire 20% of the galaxy (during the war it was probably the other way round). Rest are allies, independent worlds, other superpowers etc.
But having more planets won't win the war, it really depends on which planets you got.
"I was one of many. We were servants of the dark side… Sith Lords, we called ourselves. So proud. In the end we were not so proud. We hid… hid from those we had betrayed. We fell… and I knew it would be so."
-Ajunta Pall

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
12.20.2012 , 05:54 AM | #302
Quote: Originally Posted by Maaruin View Post
It doesn't seem like it controlled every planet of these 63.6%. You see in Tor that there are a lot of independent planets in between. All in all, I get the impression that after the treaty of Coruscant when it comes to direct control the Republic controls around 25% and the Empire 20% of the galaxy (during the war it was probably the other way round). Rest are allies, independent worlds, other superpowers etc.
But having more planets won't win the war, it really depends on which planets you got.
I highly doubt that. A huge proportion of the galaxy was under Republic control before the Great War - few had reason not to be. The Hutt Cartels were the only real power, and a small few were independent. They had little influence in the Outer Rim Territories but after the Great War began the Sith Empire conquered many of the world in this sector, including ones previously neutral. And most other neutral planets were snapped up in the Cold War.

So I reckon at the point of that map. The Republic control 40% of the galaxy, the Empire 60% and the remaining 3% - which is about 2 million systems. (this is based on the number of systems that qualify for imperial representation - concerning habitable planets the number around 96 million - 3% of the galaxy is alot)

internaty's Avatar


internaty
12.20.2012 , 06:56 AM | #303
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I respect your opinion, but this example isn't the best - seeings as Japan did not have force users

If anything it works the other way. Japan is stronger than the USA (I don't know if thats fact but I'll take your word for it) much like the GE is statistically stronger than the SE. However the USA had nuclear bombs, which they dropped on Nagazaki and Hiroshima (which was disgusting by the way, just saying) and ended the war. These nuclear bombs represent the Force and its tremendous power. So the force users of the SE are going to be like dropping bombs on Japan. But thats just how I see it.
First of was not is stronger(check ww2 docementries)

Second you missing the point.
A: the amarican's wanted to force a surrender.
A ground war in japan would have bin a million times worse.

B: while the force makes nuke's seem tiny and insignificant you need to keep in mind that nuke's have different power level's likewise so do sith.
For example: lord scourge is one deadly s.o.b(son of a *****) he wasnt remotely as powerfull as revan, the exile, or the emperor.

But he was a sith as sith could get.

So having a nice army of backstabbing sith at your command might help.
But there are a few thing's about sith you are happy to ignore:
1: They got cronic backstabbing disorder. A sith cant ignore a chance for power any more then a drug addict can resist the lure of free drug's.
2: even if all sith remain loyal(and that is a very optimistic outcome to say the least)
There are still perhaps a few hunder meaby just over a thousent sith in the galaxie.
Compair that to trillions and i mean trillions of expendibol troop's.
All it take's is one lucky hit and you just lost one of your pressue's sith.
Where if you slaught the entire population of corosant you woudnt even make a dent in the galatic empire's numbers.

3: training.
If you played a sith you know how difficult it is for a sith to survive training(unless you wear plot armor)
First of not all sith are like darth nox or the emperor's wraith.
Most rate just barely above commando.

In fact many sith lords have sith as there servan's(slave's)

Where the galatic empire can replace there losses(clone's troops massive factories multiple planets, loyalist)
If you played star wars empire at war/force's of corruption you get a idea how much you need to conquer.
Even with milleneu worth of preperating the sith empire couldnt conquer what it wanted.
Instead they relied on the threaty of corosant and more importantly all those worlds hate the sith.

Lets take the galatic empire:
Sure there was a rebelion but most people just live there live's working and serving the empire.
Now think of this: having the manpower to build and man thing's like the sdd and death star?
Just to build and man it you requir thousent's of troops.

It might be hard to believe but during world war 2 allies losses(including amarica's) where far far higher then axis losses.

That is why i believe that the galatic empire will win.
Not because it is stronger (wich it is but i wont argue) but because it simple can outlast the sith empire man for man planet for planat ship for ship.

Let me put it into perspective.
Lets say your sith(ingame) is getting attacked by a endless wave of weak troopers.
How many can you kill befor your to tired to fight?
A 100? a 1000. tillions? even if you never tired eventualy you will fall to the sheer numbers.(bordem and irirtating)
And keep in mind that sith players are far stronger then there npc counter part.

All in all even if the sith empire would be stronger then the galatic empire in every possibol way, they simple cant keep up with the numbers.

After all 8 planets can create more star ships in a month then 4.
And the number's simply add up.

EDIT: i read somewhere stalin said: quantity is a quality of its own.
knowledge is power.
use it well.

Good players take any and all advantages they can get, actually. It's why they are good.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
12.20.2012 , 07:09 AM | #304
Quote: Originally Posted by internaty View Post
First of was not is stronger(check ww2 docementries)

Second you missing the point.
A: the amarican's wanted to force a surrender.
A ground war in japan would have bin a million times worse.

B: while the force makes nuke's seem tiny and insignificant you need to keep in mind that nuke's have different power level's likewise so do sith.
For example: lord scourge is one deadly s.o.b(son of a *****) he wasnt remotely as powerfull as revan, the exile, or the emperor.

But he was a sith as sith could get.

So having a nice army of backstabbing sith at your command might help.
But there are a few thing's about sith you are happy to ignore:
1: They got cronic backstabbing disorder. A sith cant ignore a chance for power any more then a drug addict can resist the lure of free drug's.
2: even if all sith remain loyal(and that is a very optimistic outcome to say the least)
There are still perhaps a few hunder meaby just over a thousent sith in the galaxie.
Compair that to trillions and i mean trillions of expendibol troop's.
All it take's is one lucky hit and you just lost one of your pressue's sith.
Where if you slaught the entire population of corosant you woudnt even make a dent in the galatic empire's numbers.

3: training.
If you played a sith you know how difficult it is for a sith to survive training(unless you wear plot armor)
First of not all sith are like darth nox or the emperor's wraith.
Most rate just barely above commando.

In fact many sith lords have sith as there servan's(slave's)

Where the galatic empire can replace there losses(clone's troops massive factories multiple planets, loyalist)
If you played star wars empire at war/force's of corruption you get a idea how much you need to conquer.
Even with milleneu worth of preperating the sith empire couldnt conquer what it wanted.
Instead they relied on the threaty of corosant and more importantly all those worlds hate the sith.

Lets take the galatic empire:
Sure there was a rebelion but most people just live there live's working and serving the empire.
Now think of this: having the manpower to build and man thing's like the sdd and death star?
Just to build and man it you requir thousent's of troops.

It might be hard to believe but during world war 2 allies losses(including amarica's) where far far higher then axis losses.

That is why i believe that the galatic empire will win.
Not because it is stronger (wich it is but i wont argue) but because it simple can outlast the sith empire man for man planet for planat ship for ship.

Let me put it into perspective.
Lets say your sith(ingame) is getting attacked by a endless wave of weak troopers.
How many can you kill befor your to tired to fight?
A 100? a 1000. tillions? even if you never tired eventualy you will fall to the sheer numbers.(bordem and irirtating)
And keep in mind that sith players are far stronger then there npc counter part.

All in all even if the sith empire would be stronger then the galatic empire in every possibol way, they simple cant keep up with the numbers.

After all 8 planets can create more star ships in a month then 4.
And the number's simply add up.
You make a very good point, the GE win a war of attrition. But its whether it will come to that. We have to consider what would happen if the SE went on the full offensive. And instead of waiting for wave after wave, cut through and destroyed the source.

What I really wanted to highlight here is that the GE is by no means immune to infighting. As as I combed through the previous posts, totting up points, I noticed a lot of people were mentioning unquestionable loyalty to the Empire - which was not the case. However we also have to consider that in terms of the SE - backstabbing was surprisingly rare. They experienced relative peace for 1000 years, with only two insurrections from the Dark Council, which the Emperor put down with ease. And during the Great Galactic War to my knowledge there was no backstabbing or rebellion. Its only in the Cold War period, when Sith and Imperials alike are becoming restless, many angry over the Treaty of Coruscant, and with the Emperor's recession from the limelight and supposed death, are they beginning to stir trouble. I figure they will be too occupied with war against the GE to descend into betrayals and backstabbing, but it is more than a possibility.

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
12.20.2012 , 07:31 AM | #305
Quote: Originally Posted by internaty View Post
From my point of view the galatic empire would win.
I like to point out to ww2.

Japan was by very definition stronger then the usa.
Yet the usa won because of there industeral might.
Even(and i highly doubt it) if the sith empire was able to win every fight agains the galatic empire they would still not be able to replace there losses as quik and the galatice empire could.

The only way this could end quikly.
Is via assasintation of either emperor.
Like Beni said: Japan didn't have force users. OR a Emperor who can pretty much brainwash anyone (save Sidiious in this Kaggath).

But I wouldn't say Japan was stronger then the USA. Like you said, industrial might is a big factor.

Also: A Japan to America WW2 analogy doesn't quite sum up the SE vs the GE.

internaty's Avatar


internaty
12.20.2012 , 07:33 AM | #306
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
You make a very good point, the GE win a war of attrition. But its whether it will come to that. We have to consider what would happen if the SE went on the full offensive. And instead of waiting for wave after wave, cut through and destroyed the source.
That is the enitre point:
Unless the sith empire can hit several key target's in close succesion and without fail(aka humany impossibol)
Target's like kuat, corosant, the emperor, every last moff, and certian target's forbidden for this topic.
If you miss even one target you will have your war of attrition.

You have to sirously cripple the galatic empire befor the war even start's(something the sith emperor is good at) in order to stand a fair chance.

Far more likely is that lord videan(i believe the sith emperor's name is) is to simply wait for darth sideus to die of old age of have him assasinted then take over his empire.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
What I really wanted to highlight here is that the GE is by no means immune to infighting. As as I combed through the previous posts, totting up points, I noticed a lot of people were mentioning unquestionable loyalty to the Empire - which was not the case. However we also have to consider that in terms of the SE - backstabbing was surprisingly rare. They experienced relative peace for 1000 years, with only two insurrections from the Dark Council, which the Emperor put down with ease. And during the Great Galactic War to my knowledge there was no backstabbing or rebellion. Its only in the Cold War period, when Sith and Imperials alike are becoming restless, many angry over the Treaty of Coruscant, and with the Emperor's recession from the limelight and supposed death, are they beginning to stir trouble. I figure they will be too occupied with war against the GE to descend into betrayals and backstabbing, but it is more than a possibility.
True when sith are focus they become deadly.
But how many years of war can a sith endure?
Even the most bloodlust driving sith will after years of slaughter consider to change side just for a break.
Let me put this image into your mind:
You have bin killing enemies for years, you bin into deserts, tropic's forest, underwater fights, you name it you bin there. and everywhere you go it is the same thing. the same enemies, the same planet your going to retake a few month's from now. Your only break's are between fight's and gaurd duty.

Now the enemy is offering you a full pardonship of all your crime's against them,
A life in luxery after the war, double your current pay. all for the small price of changing side.
Now it take's a extreemly loyal person to remain loyal to something after suffering for it for many years.

It is the reson why so many jedi are easy to turn.
They are offered to go from servant of the people of the republic to lord and master of your own piece of land.
It is easy to be loyal when everything is well and good.
But every war has its traitor's and sith care for power, not bloodshed in general.
knowledge is power.
use it well.

Good players take any and all advantages they can get, actually. It's why they are good.

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
12.20.2012 , 07:33 AM | #307
Quote: Originally Posted by GrimAce View Post
Just throwing it out there, but the Ascendant Spear's surprise advance strike on Coruscant wouldn't work, what with the planetary shielding and Golan battlestations and whatnot.
Infiltration.

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
12.20.2012 , 07:41 AM | #308
Quote: Originally Posted by internaty View Post
First of was not is stronger(check ww2 docementries)

Second you missing the point.
A: the amarican's wanted to force a surrender.
A ground war in japan would have bin a million times worse.

B: while the force makes nuke's seem tiny and insignificant you need to keep in mind that nuke's have different power level's likewise so do sith.
For example: lord scourge is one deadly s.o.b(son of a *****) he wasnt remotely as powerfull as revan, the exile, or the emperor.

But he was a sith as sith could get.

So having a nice army of backstabbing sith at your command might help.
But there are a few thing's about sith you are happy to ignore:
1: They got cronic backstabbing disorder. A sith cant ignore a chance for power any more then a drug addict can resist the lure of free drug's.
2: even if all sith remain loyal(and that is a very optimistic outcome to say the least)
There are still perhaps a few hunder meaby just over a thousent sith in the galaxie.
Compair that to trillions and i mean trillions of expendibol troop's.
All it take's is one lucky hit and you just lost one of your pressue's sith.
Where if you slaught the entire population of corosant you woudnt even make a dent in the galatic empire's numbers.

3: training.
If you played a sith you know how difficult it is for a sith to survive training(unless you wear plot armor)
First of not all sith are like darth nox or the emperor's wraith.
Most rate just barely above commando.

In fact many sith lords have sith as there servan's(slave's)

Where the galatic empire can replace there losses(clone's troops massive factories multiple planets, loyalist)
If you played star wars empire at war/force's of corruption you get a idea how much you need to conquer.
Even with milleneu worth of preperating the sith empire couldnt conquer what it wanted.
Instead they relied on the threaty of corosant and more importantly all those worlds hate the sith.

Lets take the galatic empire:
Sure there was a rebelion but most people just live there live's working and serving the empire.
Now think of this: having the manpower to build and man thing's like the sdd and death star?
Just to build and man it you requir thousent's of troops.

It might be hard to believe but during world war 2 allies losses(including amarica's) where far far higher then axis losses.

That is why i believe that the galatic empire will win.
Not because it is stronger (wich it is but i wont argue) but because it simple can outlast the sith empire man for man planet for planat ship for ship.

Let me put it into perspective.
Lets say your sith(ingame) is getting attacked by a endless wave of weak troopers.
How many can you kill befor your to tired to fight?
A 100? a 1000. tillions? even if you never tired eventualy you will fall to the sheer numbers.(bordem and irirtating)
And keep in mind that sith players are far stronger then there npc counter part.

All in all even if the sith empire would be stronger then the galatic empire in every possibol way, they simple cant keep up with the numbers.

After all 8 planets can create more star ships in a month then 4.
And the number's simply add up.

EDIT: i read somewhere stalin said: quantity is a quality of its own.
You make some good points: but I'm confused. Are you comparing the SE to Japan or America? I thought you were comparing them to Japan until you said that the allies lost more soldiers during the war and then said that was why the GE would win. I'm confused.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
12.20.2012 , 07:42 AM | #309
Quote: Originally Posted by internaty View Post
True when sith are focus they become deadly.
But how many years of war can a sith endure?
Even the most bloodlust driving sith will after years of slaughter consider to change side just for a break.
Let me put this image into your mind:
You have bin killing enemies for years, you bin into deserts, tropic's forest, underwater fights, you name it you bin there. and everywhere you go it is the same thing. the same enemies, the same planet your going to retake a few month's from now. Your only break's are between fight's and gaurd duty.

Now the enemy is offering you a full pardonship of all your crime's against them,
A life in luxery after the war, double your current pay. all for the small price of changing side.
Now it take's a extreemly loyal person to remain loyal to something after suffering for it for many years.

It is the reson why so many jedi are easy to turn.
They are offered to go from servant of the people of the republic to lord and master of your own piece of land.
It is easy to be loyal when everything is well and good.
But every war has its traitor's and sith care for power, not bloodshed in general.
Remember the Sith Code?

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion I gain strength.
Through strength I gain power.
Through power I gain victory.
Through victory my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

The Sith do not and never will, 'want a break'. Peace is a lie to them, they feed of war and the passion it brings. Fighting only makes them exponentially stronger while Jedi grow weaker as they rely on serenity to draw on the light side of the Force. While the Sith feed of passions and off war. Malgus even believed that the only way the Sith could survive was through perpetual war. Perhaps Sith troopers will be encouraged to defect, but no more that a Stormtrooper would - if not less, as everyone in the SE is trained to be fanatically loyal to the Emperor.

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
12.20.2012 , 07:42 AM | #310
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
You make a very good point, the GE win a war of attrition. But its whether it will come to that. We have to consider what would happen if the SE went on the full offensive. And instead of waiting for wave after wave, cut through and destroyed the source.

What I really wanted to highlight here is that the GE is by no means immune to infighting. As as I combed through the previous posts, totting up points, I noticed a lot of people were mentioning unquestionable loyalty to the Empire - which was not the case. However we also have to consider that in terms of the SE - backstabbing was surprisingly rare. They experienced relative peace for 1000 years, with only two insurrections from the Dark Council, which the Emperor put down with ease. And during the Great Galactic War to my knowledge there was no backstabbing or rebellion. Its only in the Cold War period, when Sith and Imperials alike are becoming restless, many angry over the Treaty of Coruscant, and with the Emperor's recession from the limelight and supposed death, are they beginning to stir trouble. I figure they will be too occupied with war against the GE to descend into betrayals and backstabbing, but it is more than a possibility.
That's a great point. The Sith are gonna be too focused on a war with the GE to do any backstabbing.