Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Kaggath Series: Darth Sidious vs Sith Emperor

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Series: Darth Sidious vs Sith Emperor

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
12.16.2012 , 05:21 AM | #121
Quote: Originally Posted by StarSquirrel View Post
Question: Are we including the ability for both sides to potentially increase the size of their forces by production and conscription or are we going off what they had at the height of their power and then they have only that to work with?
Yes, anything goes (well almost anything)

Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
Does the Spear even have any stats on what it carries? Cause from what I looked up, its bare bones and if we go by that its modified from a Terminus-class destroyer, it gets utterly destroyed total its fighter complement is only 16. Its fast yes, but only in hyperspace travel how fast is it combat wise?
Modified doesn't do it justice. The Terminus-class destroyer you may have noticed is 500 metres. The Ascendant Spear is 1600 metres. So thats twice the size of a Harrower and the same size as an Imperial Star Destroyer. To estimate its capacities I'd say probably twice as much as a Harrower so 254 fighters/bombers. Not that that really matters as the Spear's abilities do not lie in its fighter capacity and other ships will provide fighters anyway. It's strength lies in its ability to destroy a Star Destroyer with a volley of turbolaser fire, literally.

I assume hyperdrive speed has some sort of bearing on general speed as in the Annihilation novel it's super fast and super maneuverable. Fast enough to actually avoid fighter attacks.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
That's a good point, but I think Death Squadron would take a more active approach to the battle.

I wouldn't say losing the Executor is that big of a loss. The Galactic Empire has quite a few Executor-class SSD's.

I don't know how effective the Dread Master's fear abilities would be against Sidious' Battle Meditation. The will of the Dread Masters vs. the will of the greatest Sith Lord ever!
Of course, but they'd have no choice to hold back in this one. I expect they'd send as many TIE-fighters as they could into battle however.

And thats a good point, how does a normal SSD match up to the Executor though? I assumed the Executor was some how elite... even so, its more of a morale thing if anything. The Executor is the most powerful ship in the Imperial Navy (minus the Eclipse) and the figure head of Death Squadron. Losing it will make the Empire seem weak and incapable, especially in terms of the Ascendant Spear - which will come to represent death and fear - especially with the Dread Masters at its head.

As for Dread Masters vs Battle Meditation. I think its an obivous victory for the Dread Masters. I mean I questioned the credibility of this 'battle meditation' before. The only mention I can find of it is at the Battle of Endor. Nowhere does it say it was galaxy wide. Which is pretty impossible to do even for Palpatine. I mean who can maintain an effective and powerful (and it would have too be powerful to resist the Dread Masters who mastered the gosh darn* Phobis devices!!) battle meditation on a galatic-scale subconsciously and without even using a battle meditation sphere?! I mean are you telling me Palpatine could be doing his paperwork in his office on Coruscant, or hosting the festival of light on Naboo, while boosting the morale of some stromtroopers on Tatooine and some fighter pilots over some far flung asteroid field. And where not talking subtle battle meditation here, were talking full scale mind control! If Palpatine is really that powerful why didn't he just brainwash the Senate into making him Emperor from the word go? And then call down the powers of the Almighty to vaporise the entire Jedi Order across the galaxy?! Its my belief that Palpatine's Battle Meditation is like any other - it takes concentration and can only be exerted on one field of battle, which he is present in. For example the Battle of Endor, which is why the Empire started losing when he probably broke concentration when confronting Luke - and after his death.

Apologies for the rant but I have a personal disdain for post-ROTJ overpowering - and this is what it looks like to me...

*why does SWTOR keep changing g-o-d d-a-m-n to gosh darn?! I call political correctness! gosh darn it!

Rayla_Felana's Avatar


Rayla_Felana
12.16.2012 , 06:36 AM | #122
I think people are underestimating the power of Death Squadron, it wasn't just some gathering of ships that Vader through together, it was at minimum the Executor, the Avenger(Which itself was modified to be an all-out assault Destroyer with 20 more of both heavy and regular Turbolasers) and three other IMP IIs, an Interdictor which stops ships from jumping to hyperspace and last but not least, they have a Victory II class SD, which was very quick and served as their scout ship, it didn't just have 20 double-heavy turbolaser batteries, it had 30 Double-heavy turbolaser cannons instead.

And also, no, Beni, it was constant and galaxy-wide, it was why the Empire was so damned efficient, as soon as he died at Endor, the Empire lost cohesion and co-operation, the crews of the ships at Endor just froze, it took years for the Imperial Remnant to find even nearly as much cohesion and it lost them most of the galaxy to the New Republic.

gibmachine's Avatar


gibmachine
12.16.2012 , 06:59 AM | #123
Quote: Originally Posted by Rayla_Felana View Post
And also, no, Beni, it was constant and galaxy-wide, it was why the Empire was so damned efficient, as soon as he died at Endor, the Empire lost cohesion and co-operation, the crews of the ships at Endor just froze, it took years for the Imperial Remnant to find even nearly as much cohesion and it lost them most of the galaxy to the New Republic.
Efficiency and coordination only get you so far. They are useless when your mind gets obliterated which is what Dread Masters do.
The earth begins to rumble and your foes begin to tremble. You come and destruction comes with you.

Draanok

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
12.16.2012 , 07:28 AM | #124
Quote: Originally Posted by Rayla_Felana View Post
And also, no, Beni, it was constant and galaxy-wide, it was why the Empire was so damned efficient, as soon as he died at Endor, the Empire lost cohesion and co-operation, the crews of the ships at Endor just froze, it took years for the Imperial Remnant to find even nearly as much cohesion and it lost them most of the galaxy to the New Republic.
I remain deeply suspicious. I just don't see how Sidious could maintain galaxy wide battle meditation without even being in a meditation sphere or actively meditating at all. The only way I see it working is if it is a subtle, constant force which amplifies efficiency, coordination and maintains confidence (rather than boosting morale) - which while not being as powerful as say Bastila's battle meditation of Kaan's does turn the stormtroopers into efficient killing machines, basically droids but a lot smarter. Is this the case? If it is it gives them an advantage or rather removes a Sith advantage as they won't be phased by Sith in battle. But even so, surely Sidious has too be actively in meditation to maintain it? It just seems to fly in the face of everything we know about the Force...

However if this is the case they won't be able to resist the Dread Masters unless Sidious is actually there on the battlefield and using the full power of his battle meditation.

IMO the Ascendant Spear with its own fleet of Harrower's beats the Executor - once the Executor is down Death Squadron is bantha fodder. However, after that the Spear will only last so long. The Empire will realise it as a threat both to morale and naval superiority (as well as a chance to take out the Dread Masters) and throw everything they've got at destroying it. Sure it could probably survive several confrontations with SD and SSD's (if it begins to lose it can just hyperspace jump outta there). But the Empire will get smart pretty quick and star using Interdictors and then throw everything they've got at it. Or Mara Jade or another infiltrator could board the ship and destroy it from the inside. Plan A is probably better though as the ship is notoriously hard to slice and the Dread Masters will probably sense any intruders and drive them insane...

Once the Spear is destroyed and perhaps the Dread Masters with them the SE will lose a considerable space advantage. The GE will take heavy losses - but as you guys have proven, they can afford to.

Another thought however, the Spear could be used to cripple the GE's shipyards at Kuat etc before the Empire could react - which would limit their production and swing the battle in the SE favour. Just a thought.

Rayla_Felana's Avatar


Rayla_Felana
12.16.2012 , 07:30 AM | #125
Quote: Originally Posted by gibmachine View Post
Efficiency and coordination only get you so far. They are useless when your mind gets obliterated which is what Dread Masters do.
Considering they are motivated by the will of the most powerful Sith ever, then I disagree, as I personally believe the true Emperor here could turn the Dread Masters to his will, as the only reason they followed Vitiate was his power, considering Sidious is much more powerful, indeed he is in-fact a Dark Side nexus, then he can turn one of Vitiate's most potent weapons and their 'Ascendant Spear' all at once.

I think Sidious would be more careful than just all-out attrition based war, instead he would convert the most powerful of Vitiate's subjects to his will and use the Sith Emperor's own subjects to defeat him and then either use them to their full extent or Order 66 them.

Rayla_Felana's Avatar


Rayla_Felana
12.16.2012 , 07:35 AM | #126
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I remain deeply suspicious. I just don't see how Sidious could maintain galaxy wide battle meditation without even being in a meditation sphere or actively meditating at all. The only way I see it working is if it is a subtle, constant force which amplifies efficiency, coordination and maintains confidence (rather than boosting morale) - which while not being as powerful as say Bastila's battle meditation of Kaan's does turn the stormtroopers into efficient killing machines, basically droids but a lot smarter. Is this the case? If it is it gives them an advantage or rather removes a Sith advantage as they won't be phased by Sith in battle. But even so, surely Sidious has too be actively in meditation to maintain it? It just seems to fly in the face of everything we know about the Force...
You think that's powerful? what about the fact he literally just relaxed and drank some tea whilst simultaneously draining the life-force of 16 billion people on Byss, they didn't even know what was happening, how about when he mindwiped the entire of Imperial Center so they would forget him parking the Lusankya under Imperial Palace? galaxy wide BM is nothing compared to his other feats.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
12.16.2012 , 07:41 AM | #127
Quote: Originally Posted by Rayla_Felana View Post
Considering they are motivated by the will of the most powerful Sith ever, then I disagree, as I personally believe the true Emperor here could turn the Dread Masters to his will, as the only reason they followed Vitiate was his power, considering Sidious is much more powerful, indeed he is in-fact a Dark Side nexus, then he can turn one of Vitiate's most potent weapons and their 'Ascendant Spear' all at once.

I think Sidious would be more careful than just all-out attrition based war, instead he would convert the most powerful of Vitiate's subjects to his will and use the Sith Emperor's own subjects to defeat him and then either use them to their full extent or Order 66 them.
You may a very good point. I still disagree that Sidious's influence could resist the overwhelming power of the Dread Masters which could literally shatter the enemies mind with ease. I mean they mastered the Phobis Devices, they are masters of fear. The very fact that Stormtroopers scream when they die shows they are not immune to pain and fear, they are not mindless machines and so can be exploited.

But the Dread Masters are not exactly loyal. Will they be able to sense the power of Sidious from a far? Perhaps, probably not - saying yes is baseless speculation. So I assume at least at first the Dread Masters will be on the Emperor's side. Sidious is going to have to make some sort of personal appearance to get them to join him... but I'm sure he could work something out. Ideas?
Quote: Originally Posted by Rayla_Felana View Post
You think that's powerful? what about the fact he literally just relaxed and drank some tea whilst simultaneously draining the life-force of 16 billion people on Byss, they didn't even know what was happening, how about when he mindwiped the entire of Imperial Center so they would forget him parking the Lusankya under Imperial Palace? galaxy wide BM is nothing compared to his other feats.
This is why I hate NJO OK, so I suppose we just have to accept that he can do this - even though its rather silly.

Rayla_Felana's Avatar


Rayla_Felana
12.16.2012 , 07:45 AM | #128
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
You may a very good point. I still disagree that Sidious's influence could resist the overwhelming power of the Dread Masters which could literally shatter the enemies mind with ease. I mean they mastered the Phobis Devices, they are masters of fear. The very fact that Stormtroopers scream when they die shows they are not immune to pain and fear, they are not mindless machines and so can be exploited.
Obviously it's not going to cancel the Dread Masters entirely, but they aren't going to have the Empire running around like Red Shirts.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
But the Dread Masters are not exactly loyal. Will they be able to sense the power of Sidious from a far? Perhaps, probably not - saying yes is baseless speculation. So I assume at least at first the Dread Masters will be on the Emperor's side. Sidious is going to have to make some sort of personal appearance to get them to join him... but I'm sure he could work something out. Ideas?
Obviously he isn't going to know about them straight away, but he doesn't need to, so they took out a couple of ships, he IS going to notice a couple of very powerful Sith messing about with his lackeys, once that happens, he'll probably go investigating and laugh maniacally at what they are doing.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
This is why I hate NJO OK, so I suppose we just have to accept that he can do this - even though its rather silly.
You have heard of Grand Master Skywalker? ;P

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
12.16.2012 , 07:58 AM | #129
IF the RZ was able to beat the GE, why won't the SE be able to beat 'em? The SE is without a doubt more powerful then the RA. The SE has thousands of Sith, be it acolytes, masters, lords, or darths. Sidious's army, battle med, and special forces didn't save him from Luke Skywalker and the RA.

Just how well are Sidious's forces gonna be able to canonically counter Sith?

The Sith are the big bad guys in Star Wars. They're the most powerful antagonists out there. Vitiate has thousands of them.

gibmachine's Avatar


gibmachine
12.16.2012 , 09:00 AM | #130
Quote: Originally Posted by Rayla_Felana View Post
Considering they are motivated by the will of the most powerful Sith ever, then I disagree, as I personally believe the true Emperor here could turn the Dread Masters to his will, as the only reason they followed Vitiate was his power, considering Sidious is much more powerful, indeed he is in-fact a Dark Side nexus, then he can turn one of Vitiate's most potent weapons and their 'Ascendant Spear' all at once..
Except Dread Masters aren't simply following Vitiate. They literally being controlled by him. They are his puppets and he is what keeps them in check. Palpatine cannot mind control on this scale and with that magnitude. Vitiate can. Even if Dread Masters do realize that Palpatine > Vitiate in sheer power, it would mean squat cause they are on Vitiate's leash. Sure, Palpatine can mind wipe people to not see a cruiser right in front of their nose but he doesn't have the ability to destroy the will of the Dread Masters. Vitiate can. That's what he does.

I say Dread Masters > battle meditation.

Also, I doubt that Palpatine would be able to simultaneously coordinate all of his troops scattered throughout multiple fronts. Send Ascendant Spear to one battle, Dread Masters to other battle, Emperor's Wrath with a couple of Darths to third and dispatch HK-51s to backstab everything. Not saying that this would mean SE wins easily but it also cancels the "GE > SE by default cause of their superiority in everything but Sith".
The earth begins to rumble and your foes begin to tremble. You come and destruction comes with you.

Draanok