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Kaggath Series: Darth Sidious vs Sith Emperor

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Series: Darth Sidious vs Sith Emperor

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
12.15.2012 , 03:46 PM | #91
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
When the 501st killed the Jedi and succeded it was because of complete suprise. Fighting Sith who are excepeting them is gonna be really different.

SE has their own Special Forces.

Let's look at what it took to destroy the Empire: Luke Skywalker. How much more effective will thousands (i think) of Sith do against the GE? Force users are a lot more effective then we're giving them credit.

Really guys, these empires are extremely similar. The only real differences are this:
Sidious > Vitiate
- Vitiate has thousands of Sith
- Sidious's fleet and army is slightly larger

^^ That spells victory for Vitiate. He has thousands of Sith for crying out loud.
And yet the Galactic Empire has counters for Sith. Dark Troopers, Shadow Guard, Sovereign Guard, heavy assault vehicles, and the Emperor's hands. The Dark Troopers in particular will be incredibly effective, provided their phrik composition is still canon.

Not to mention Sidious having knowledge of Sith warfare and how to best them.
Added Chapter 35 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
12.15.2012 , 03:48 PM | #92
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
You forget that Palpatine was preparing his Empire for the inevitable Yuuzhan Vong invasion, specifically by sending Thrawn to map the Unknown Regions and scout for the "Far Outsiders".

Also, the Republic at the time of the Clone Wars was able to produce a massive fleet to match the Seperatist forces in a relatively short time. Mind you the CIS was preparing for war for a long time and had a pretty large armada. The Galactic Empire further expanded upon the Republic fleet by producing some of the most powerful ships on record. They had 20,000 Star Destroyers and a couple dozen SSD's, plus some of the most powerful anti-fighter platforms available.

The Galactic Empire has the superiority in all but one category. They have superior numbers, superior ships, superior ground forces, but they lack Sith. But I have explained how the Galactic Empire counters the Sith.
I disagree with that a bit. They have better numbers, but their ship quality and ground force qualtiy is the same.

But those Sith win it. Those Sith are gonna be flying the fighters that cripple the Imperial soldiers. They'll be at the helm of the frigate directing the battle and aided by the force. They. Are. Force. Users. And there are a lot of them.

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
12.15.2012 , 03:50 PM | #93
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
And yet the Galactic Empire has counters for Sith. Dark Troopers, Shadow Guard, Sovereign Guard, heavy assault vehicles, and the Emperor's hands. The Dark Troopers in particular will be incredibly effective, provided their phrik composition is still canon.

Not to mention Sidious having knowledge of Sith warfare and how to best them.
Special Forces? Heavy assault vehicles? Vitiate has these too...

Well I've made my argument and I don't feel there is much to add to this. I'll try to stand back and watch how this turns out.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
12.15.2012 , 03:54 PM | #94
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
I disagree with that a bit. They have better numbers, but their ship quality and ground force qualtiy is the same.

But those Sith win it. Those Sith are gonna be flying the fighters that cripple the Imperial soldiers. They'll be at the helm of the frigate directing the battle and aided by the force. They. Are. Force. Users. And there are a lot of them.
No one is saying the Sith don't provide an advantage, but the Galactic Empire has ways to counter the Sith as I have pointed out.

And Sidious commands his forces through his dominating will and galaxy spanning Battle Meditation. The Sith are not insta-win. If they were, the Republic would have been conquered already. Time and again we see the Sith lose. Sidious has his own Sith, but that didn't give him the victory against the Rebel Alliance.

Sure the Republic has had Jedi over the millenia, but the Jedi are not infallible. Exar Kun almost wiped out the Jedi. Same with Revan's Sith Empire.

And not all of the Sith in the Sith Empire are Sith Lords. A good many of them are mere acolytes or apprentices.
Added Chapter 35 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
12.15.2012 , 03:56 PM | #95
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
Special Forces? Heavy assault vehicles? Vitiate has these too...

Well I've made my argument and I don't feel there is much to add to this. I'll try to stand back and watch how this turns out.
Special Forces? Comparable to the EVO Troopers or Dark Troopers?

Does Vitiate have heavy war machines capable of matching the firepower and heavy armor of the AT-AT?

The Galactic Empire is the superior version of the Sith Empire.
Added Chapter 35 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Rayla_Felana's Avatar


Rayla_Felana
12.15.2012 , 04:05 PM | #96
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
Again with the specifics. You're pulling out all this precise info on the GE and you are assuming that the SE has nothing of the sort. You're implying that because we don't know how big the SE fleet is that it must not be as big as the GE's fleet. That's not correct logic. Here's what we do know about the SE fleet:

Don't misunderstand me: I think that the GE's fleet is likely larger then the SE's fleet. In that since I agree with you. But to say that the GE fleet is WAY larger then the SE's fleet isn't canon-supported.
If the fleet the Imperial Navy had was anywhere near the size of the Galactic Empire's the Emperor would never have wanted the Star Forge, as we know as fact that the Star Forge only produced around almost 1,000 ships in the time the Splinter Empire wielded it, you also need to realise that the Republic Navy only had a collective fleet of a thousand ships(Estimated by Mandalore) and they managed to take down the Mandalorians, the Republic and then rebuilt for 300 years and STILL managed to fend off the Sith Empire to the point of desperation.

The Imperial Navy cannot be all that big if they couldn't take at most (and this is generous) 2,500 republic vessels, as the capacity for shipyards at that time wasn't even nearly as large as the capacity of the Shipyards at the end of the Clone Wars, the Kuat company itself had grown by 70% just in the space of time between the NSW and the onset of the Clone Wars.

Also just to give you an idea of how large the Republic and the CIS were militarily, the Clone Wars was the largest conflict in galactic history and in the space of three years, over 70% of the galaxy had seen a full scale war, with another 15% suffering from border skirmishes.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
12.15.2012 , 04:15 PM | #97
Let's do a comparison of everything we have here.

Industry: The Galactic Empire has complete control of the galaxy along with several massive shipyards, tons of vehicle manufacturers and troop training facilities. The Sith Empire is in control of a small sector of space with relatively small shipyards. Galactic Empire wins in this category.

Troop numbers: The Galactic Empire can enlist and train troops on a galactic scale. The Sith Empire's troops mainly come from their citizens and civilians conscripted from conquered worlds. They Sith Empire also has Sith, but we'll discuss that later. Galactic Empire wins here.

Vehicular power: The Galactic Empire has control of some of the biggest manufacturers in the galaxy, allowing them to produce some of the biggest and most powerful vehicles ever. The Sith Empire has small factories located across their Empire allowing them to produce vehicles quickly, but not as fast as the Galactic Empire. GE wins this category.

Space superiority: The Galactic Empire has control of the largest "super shipyards" in the galaxy, specifically Kuat Drive Yards, allowing them to make powerful ships quickly. The Sith Empire has relatively powerful ships, but these ships pale in comparison to the ISD's. The Sith Empire's best ship (I believe) is the Ascendant Spear. But how many SSD's can it take out? One? Two? The Galactic Empire has dozens of SSD's. Galactic Empire wins here.

Force users: The Sith Empire has an army of Sith at its command. The Galactic Empire's Force users are few compared to this, but their training allows them to do battle with such an army. Overall, the Sith Empire's Sith win this category.

One on One: Sidious. Pretty much canon fact.

Taking all of this into account, the Galactic Empire has the victory here. While the Sith Empire's Sith forces will do some pretty heavy damage, the Galactic Empire's superior numbers and firepower will secure the victory.

Now here's a little food for thought. The Sith Empire took a long time to build their armada, the Republic was able to build a fleet to counter the Seperatists in a very short time. The Galactic Empire has the ability to produce more and more forces in very little time. Not as quickly as the CIS, but still much faster than the Sith Empire.

Edit: Now with the Force users category, I did not include Sidious simply because he could kill or convert any Sith that attempted to face him.
Added Chapter 35 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
12.15.2012 , 04:53 PM | #98
Just clarification on technology: I'll remind you of the rule:

Technology level is universal (unless considered archaic or advanced at the time): blaster fire, armouring, lightsabers etc. are all the same regardless of period, all that matters is size, quantity and power.

So for example. A SE Blaster rifle would have the same firepower as a GE blaster rifle. Unless of course the GE blaster rifle in question was somehow superior in its age e.g. using new and special technology. However a SE Blaster rifle is not more powerful than say some crazy dude with 5 arms and 5 blaster rifles. Just as a battleship with 50 turbolasers beats a battle cruiser with 10 - regardless of period.

This applies for shields and armoring as well. All in the 'walker' class have the same armoring, unless its some kind of elite walker. All in the capital ship class have the same armoring, unless its some kind of elite battlecruiser like the Executor of Ascendant Spear.

So in this case, if a capital ship has a better reactor design than its equivalent in a different era - that does not make it superior as the previous era did not have access to that technology. Unless of course this reactor core was considered unprecedented and advanced at the time. So the reactor core powers are universalized based on class (e.g. its a better core than a corvette would have)

Hope that clears up any confusion.
Quote: Originally Posted by Rayla_Felana View Post
Also I'd like to say that I feel we are running this series a little short, I know we'll have a finals tournament, but many more combatants could be brought up and used in a battle.
Really? At times I thought it was going on for a while. Had know idea it would be this popular! I'll definitely give it some thought - personally no future combatants come to mind - but I'll give it some thought and maybe put out a suggestions thread or something.

P.S. We've yet to consider the impact that the Executor and more importantly the Ascendant Spear would have on the battle. Anyone who's read the Annihilation novel knows the Ascendant Spear is a deadly capital ship, so it definitely has importance in this battle. And before you ask, although Dark Council members are banned (which would exclude Darth Karrid) the Spear would operate as if Karrid were operating it - as this would unfairly hinder the Spear's full power.

Thoughts?

Rayla_Felana's Avatar


Rayla_Felana
12.15.2012 , 05:04 PM | #99
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
P.S. We've yet to consider the impact that the Executor and more importantly the Ascendant Spear would have on the battle. Anyone who's read the Annihilation novel knows the Ascendant Spear is a deadly capital ship, so it definitely has importance in this battle. And before you ask, although Dark Council members are banned (which would exclude Darth Karrid) the Spear would operate as if Karrid were operating it - as this would unfairly hinder the Spear's full power.

Thoughts?
At a minimum there were 30 Super Star Destroyers, at the height of Imperial power, they would undeniably change the course of any battle, especially if it is the Executor with Death Squadron.

Also the Ravager was deemed basically unusable because you yourself stated because Nihilus wasn't a part of the Revan vs Traya a battle, then it doesn't have the same effectiveness as if Nihilus was commanding it, I think it is only fair the same applies here.

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
12.15.2012 , 05:07 PM | #100
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Special Forces? Comparable to the EVO Troopers or Dark Troopers?

Does Vitiate have heavy war machines capable of matching the firepower and heavy armor of the AT-AT?

The Galactic Empire is the superior version of the Sith Empire.
Theres also Shadow Stormtroopers, Storm Commandos, Terror Troopers, Storm Commanders(which were the equivalent to the ARC Commandos of the Clone Wars). MasterMe, you keep saying Vitiate has SF and while the SE has SF there is no detail of what those SF consist of. Lets take a look at a few of the GE's SF.
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Phase Zero Dark Trooper= Aged clone vets who have had their body parts replaced with cybernetics(some over 70% of their body) , with their experience plus their bodies they were deadly and effective. They carried Blast Cannons, SE-14r light repeating blasters and thermal detonators, also having a jump pack to move much more quickly.

Phase 2 Dark Trooper= Droid with reinforced phrik body, jump pack, an assault cannon capable of firing 400 plasma rounds and 20 missiles before reloading, it also had a deflector shield. A small number of these destroyed a Rebel base on Talay.

Phase 3 Dark Trooper= Dwarfing the Phase 2, the Phase 3 was sometimes known as a bipedal tank, with its amalgam of a clone's creativity, unpredictability and initiative combined with resilience and heavy firepower of a heavy droid. The exhoskeleton provided the wearer with increased durability, firepower and strength it coming equipped with a handheld assault cannon and two shoulder mounted missile launchers. They were issued frag grenades, thermal detonators and concussion grenades, their armor was made of the nearly indestructible phrik metal.

Some were also equipped with integrated weapons, including a pair of dual blaster cannons and 6 PLEX rocket tubes under the shoulder plates 3 per shoulder.

Shadow Stormtroopers= Elite Stormtroopers with black stormtrooper experimental cloaking armor which aloud them to disappear within any environment. They used this technology, to surround the enemy before they even had time to mount a defense, the armor was also laced with durasteel fibers which made them more resistant to energy and physical attacks. These were successors to the clone shadow trooper from the Clone Wars.

Storm Commandos= Expert in guerrilla tactics and countering them, they were also involved in siege breaking, sabotage, and even Base Zero Delta operations against hard targets(complete destruction basically). Their armor was black scout armor, though reinforced with reflec which deflected light and sensor energy which made them invisible to all but the most determined of scans. The armor also included a sound dampener, numerous concealed weapons, and a thermal detonator that a commando could use if faced with capture.

They were also sometimes known to use Evasive-226-R field disruptors, which were advanced versions in disrupting defensive energy fields. Their main weapon was the E-11 rifle, but they also have used the Oppressor flame thrower and the Imperial long-range rocket rifle.

Stormtrooper Commander= Descendants of the ARC trooper during the Clone Wars, the commanders were treated as a special forces unit and the most elite warriors in the military. Their commitment to the Empire was so great, they would fight no matter the condition until death. Their armor had a built-in shield generator, which protected them from just about any attack including some Force based attacks, they were also armed with handheld blaster cannons equipped also with a powerful stun setting.

Emperor Shadow Guard= Silent and enigmatic warriors who took orders only from Palpatine himself, they were often sent to eliminate suspected jedi and other Force Users. They also demonstrated Force Powers of their own, capable of using Force lightning, Force Repulse, Force Choke and Force Maelstrom, though they weren't so strong in the Force. Their armor provided them a great deal of protection, and their primary weapon was the lightsaber pike but they did also have a heavy blaster pistol and a utility belt with a medpac, comlink(long range and holo capacity.)

Imperial Sovereign Protector= These were among the most elite in the guardsmen, only the best of the best were chosen. Extreme standards were set for combat fitness, stamina, strength, mental acuity, reaction time, loyalty and intelligence. They also received rudimentary training in using The Force, although not enough to stroke independence or ambition, the most exceptional were trained as Dark Jedi.
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So really...what are the Sith Empire's Special Forces? You keep saying that they have SF MasterMe, and they do...but how do they stack up against those?
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.