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Current returns from expertise and primary stats

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Current returns from expertise and primary stats

Washingtoon's Avatar


Washingtoon
12.20.2012 , 09:37 PM | #161
I think my mods are pretty min maxed on both my PvE and PvP sets but I could probably re-arrange the augs or drop expertise. I'm using 1396 expertise in PvP with bonus damage in the 900 range ( I don't want to sacrifice crit and alacrity too much since I respec a lot) and around 2450 willpower and 1060 bonus damage in PvE (63 all around minus the relay, which seemingly no one can craft on my server). All augs, in both sets, are willpower augs.

Any suggestions here? Should I drop the expertise crystals for power ones? And how about the PvE set? I tend to use the matrix cube for the extra crit since I don't think it matters much if I have 1060 bonus damage or 15 or so more. I did around 1650 dps on twh a good deal of mods ago.

Akeba's Avatar


Akeba
12.20.2012 , 11:25 PM | #162
Quote: Originally Posted by Smashbrother View Post
Only in a 1v1. Once healers get mixed into the picture and your life gets extended, the 1393 does better.
Here we will just have to agree to disagree. My stance is that as a DPS class, doing more damage to a target means bigger burst and less uptime for that target. The EHP increase is a bonus.

Quote: Originally Posted by Smashbrother View Post
You're not mix/maxing anything. Min/maxing means you've improved the effectiveness of your char in a tangible way. Your 1000 exp char is not an improvement, and actually becomes a detriment when heals get involved.
You've yet to prove this point numerically. I've shown that using PvE/PvP hybrid my kill times are faster. They were still faster under your calcs with 10k heals. Not much faster using those numbers, but these differences are only amplified while under bloodthirst, expertise buff, vindicator set bonus, etc.

Quote: Originally Posted by Smashbrother View Post
Read a graph.

http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forum...nt.php?aid=293

Notice the massive CHANGE in DR curve of surge. It's not linear anymore once you hit around 25%. Soft cap.

Now look at expertise. The DR on it is linear. It doesn't drop off at any point (at least to what graph plots which is 2500). No soft cap.

Thank you come again.
You should take your own advice. The slope on expertise is quite low compared to crit and surge, even well past their softcaps. Their damage bonus is a dependent relationship, and thus not as straightforward as expertise, but it does indicate that some amount of crit and surge are more valuable point for point than expertise.

Going by your argument we should just stack mainstat, since its DR is even less noticeable than expertise right? :P

Quote: Originally Posted by Smashbrother View Post
Guild I'm in is the top Rep pvp guild. Our highest rated guy is 3200 I believe. Nice try though.
Of course you are. Everyone on the forums is in their server/faction's top guild dontcha know?

Smashbrother's Avatar


Smashbrother
12.21.2012 , 05:36 AM | #163
Quote: Originally Posted by Akeba View Post
Here we will just have to agree to disagree. My stance is that as a DPS class, doing more damage to a target means bigger burst and less uptime for that target. The EHP increase is a bonus.
Not dying is a part of it.


Quote:
You've yet to prove this point numerically. I've shown that using PvE/PvP hybrid my kill times are faster. They were still faster under your calcs with 10k heals. Not much faster using those numbers, but these differences are only amplified while under bloodthirst, expertise buff, vindicator set bonus, etc.
*** you talking about? I just showed that the kill times are almost equal with no heals, and equal when you get healed for 10k using both your mara numbers and my sage numbers. If you get healed for more, the kill times favor the max expertise guy.

Are you blind or something?

Quote:
You should take your own advice. The slope on expertise is quite low compared to crit and surge, even well past their softcaps. Their damage bonus is a dependent relationship, and thus not as straightforward as expertise, but it does indicate that some amount of crit and surge are more valuable point for point than expertise.



Going by your argument we should just stack mainstat, since its DR is even less noticeable than expertise right? :P
Did you not look at the damn graph? A soft cap means the DR on a stat takes a dive at a certain point. You can see this with surge and crit rating. Expertise on the other hand has a LINEAR DR, which means it doesn't take a dive when you reach a certain threshold like surge or crit rating. Thus, no soft cap. That is the proper use of soft cap. Not your "I feel like anything past this amount is not worth it" crap.



Quote:
Of course you are. Everyone on the forums is in their server/faction's top guild dontcha know?
Except it's true. Go ask on The Bastion forums.

Wainamoinen's Avatar


Wainamoinen
12.21.2012 , 05:42 AM | #164
I wrote a post pointing out people are using terms like "soft cap" without apparently knowing what they mean, which if you'll pardon my British, made their points less useful.

But then I realised there was probably no point.

The way the combat system in SWTOR is set up, with all the stats interacting, makes it hard to pin down soft caps . There are few abilities where you can say "now this is suddenly less useful" - maybe accuracy taking hit to 100%, or alacrity cutting key abilities' cast times to the GCD. Comparing stats that are on diminishing returns curves means they don't really have soft caps.

The point at which you start stacking one stat for another all depends on the relative levels for that character, and given characters have a range of abilities affected by different stats, precisely which ones they use. Quite elegant really. If you stack enough power, it becomes more valuable to switch to crit, theoretically even surge. But precisely when depends on those stat's levels, and as you stack one stat it makes the others more powerful. If you're min-maxing, you need to continually balance the benefit one point of any stat would give.

That's just in damage output and before trying to consider (valid) arguments about effects of mitgation and healing.
It's a small world and it smells funny, I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money.
Ilmarinen 55 Scoundrel (Red Eclipse)

Smashbrother's Avatar


Smashbrother
12.22.2012 , 05:12 PM | #165
Quote: Originally Posted by Wainamoinen View Post
I wrote a post pointing out people are using terms like "soft cap" without apparently knowing what they mean, which if you'll pardon my British, made their points less useful.

But then I realised there was probably no point.

The way the combat system in SWTOR is set up, with all the stats interacting, makes it hard to pin down soft caps . There are few abilities where you can say "now this is suddenly less useful" - maybe accuracy taking hit to 100%, or alacrity cutting key abilities' cast times to the GCD. Comparing stats that are on diminishing returns curves means they don't really have soft caps.

The point at which you start stacking one stat for another all depends on the relative levels for that character, and given characters have a range of abilities affected by different stats, precisely which ones they use. Quite elegant really. If you stack enough power, it becomes more valuable to switch to crit, theoretically even surge. But precisely when depends on those stat's levels, and as you stack one stat it makes the others more powerful. If you're min-maxing, you need to continually balance the benefit one point of any stat would give.

That's just in damage output and before trying to consider (valid) arguments about effects of mitgation and healing.
A Softcap is a theoretical border, that upon reaching it is rewarding optimal performance for a given task by reaching a certain value.
If you decrease that value or increase it, the performance starts to become suboptimal.

http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/thread-659.html

Comparing DR curves matters in this game because you lose out on stats when you gain one stat. For example, stacking surge past 75% means you'll get less of some other stat which might be more useful, and the DR on surge past 75% is harsh.

But as for expertise, there is no point at which getting more expertise becomes suboptimal (at least in current gear levels) for pvp unless you just want to duel.

Wainamoinen's Avatar


Wainamoinen
12.22.2012 , 08:46 PM | #166
Quote: Originally Posted by Smashbrother View Post
Read the second post in the thread you linked, by the moderator. He's making my point.

Highlight (my bold):

Quote: Originally Posted by Kaedis on MMO Mechanics
The sticky point for me is that when most people say "softcap", they mean a universal one. Example, "For Sorcerers, stack surge until the softcap at 90% crit multiplier, then stack Power". This literally cannot be done for SWTOR due to the DR scaling and inter-relation of the stats.
Then

Quote: Originally Posted by CaseyTheRetard on MMO Mechanics
I'm beginning to think that use of the term "softcap" on these fora should be a bannable offense. Every time a non-theorycrafter sees the term "softcap," it reinforces the belief that there are static caps that they should be trying to achieve with their stats.
There aren't softcaps like for other games, due to the nature of the combat system calculations in SWTOR, which is what I was trying to get at.

There is still a lot of decent information on that site, it's where I lifted the equations and weights to make my own spreadsheets for gear choices (which are correct as far as I can tell).
It's a small world and it smells funny, I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money.
Ilmarinen 55 Scoundrel (Red Eclipse)

Smashbrother's Avatar


Smashbrother
12.22.2012 , 11:37 PM | #167
Quote: Originally Posted by Wainamoinen View Post
Read the second post in the thread you linked, by the moderator. He's making my point.

Highlight (my bold):



Then



There aren't softcaps like for other games, due to the nature of the combat system calculations in SWTOR, which is what I was trying to get at.

There is still a lot of decent information on that site, it's where I lifted the equations and weights to make my own spreadsheets for gear choices (which are correct as far as I can tell).
I found this to be most applicable for TOR. It's on the 2nd page.

Hardcap - you can not increase stat after this number, even if you increase gear with that stat

Softcap - you can increase your stat above this number, but it does not have noticeable effect anymore

Stat values/weights - what is value of each stat, usually compared to your primary stat

This is why DR on stats is important when talking about "soft caps" in TOR.

haksilence's Avatar


haksilence
12.23.2012 , 05:38 AM | #168
Quote: Originally Posted by Philelectric View Post
I know there is a graphic on the internet about the diminishing return of all stats but I cant remember where. But I can give you the overall knowledge about Expertise vs other stats.

If you are a full time pugger its better to stack a lot of expertise (1300+) if you do ranked with awesome healers stack around 1100-1200 expertise and go main stat or power after (main stat's diminishing return is around 1600 if I'm not mistaken)
there is no deminishing return for main stat whatsoever. expertice also has a very negligable deminishing return

here is the current DR for expertise.
http://www.jedilace.com/2012/02/02/e...-of-champions/

and for main stat's increase to critical chance return.
http://www.jedilace.com/2012/02/03/c...al-hit-chance/


basicaly for PvP Expertise is the only stat you need. so stack is as much as you can and then just itemize your gear acording to that.

Wainamoinen's Avatar


Wainamoinen
12.23.2012 , 07:01 AM | #169
Quote: Originally Posted by Smashbrother View Post
I found this to be most applicable for TOR. It's on the 2nd page.

Hardcap - you can not increase stat after this number, even if you increase gear with that stat

Softcap - you can increase your stat above this number, but it does not have noticeable effect anymore

Stat values/weights - what is value of each stat, usually compared to your primary stat

This is why DR on stats is important when talking about "soft caps" in TOR.
Actually, I'd disagree with those as incorrect.

Hardcap: increasing a stat beyond this level confers zero benefit (i.e. you CAN increase a stat past hardcap, it's simply useless to do so).

Softcap: a level beyond which, due to some game mechanic, the benefit of a stat drops off (making it more effective to swtich to stacking something else).

These are the generally accepted definitions of the terms. Anyone using "softcap" to refer to say, expertise, either a) doesn't know what the word means; b) doesn't understand the SWTOR combat system (Accuracy, possibly Alacrity, could see a softcap in SWTOR). Which is why I sigh internally pretty much every time I see someone talking about expertise on this forum.

It does mean that all those people arguing with you that there is some "softcap" to expertise are whistling out of their behinds. It doesn't mean going max expertise is always the most effective strategy (though it may be).

The most-efficient result you should aim for is that the marginal benefit of increasing each alternative stat is the same. Unfortunately for easy answers (so fortunately for avoiding cookie-cutter builds, yay to that), in SWTOR changing one stat then changes the marginal benefit of a pile of alternative stats. This means each individual's mileage will vary with their char's stats.

Having said all that, each stat has its DR curve, and you can give general advice about which tends to be strongest, scoundrels pick cunning over power, how much accuracy to set for a spec, or that there's no point stacking surge high because it quickly reaches near to its maximum benefit.
It's a small world and it smells funny, I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money.
Ilmarinen 55 Scoundrel (Red Eclipse)