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Pay2Win Space Missions ???

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DuckPirate's Avatar


DuckPirate
12.17.2012 , 12:14 PM | #871
Do a barrel roll.
I speak fluently in asterisks.

BJWyler's Avatar


BJWyler
12.17.2012 , 12:59 PM | #872
Quote: Originally Posted by Lostpenguins View Post
What is your definition of P2W then?
I thought that was determined to be a moot point about 25 pages ago. Does it matter that their opinion of P2W is? It still won't change what you think P2W is, and yours probably won't change theirs. If you want to ask that question, then it is better to ask what you would feel or what you would do if the "official" and widely accepted definition of P2W was more in line in what they think and not what your opinion of it was (and vice versa for them).

The purpose we should be here now to fulfill is not to determine what P2W means (since it means different things to different people), but how can we find the ground in the middle that will allow the CM to be a viable option to be valuable to the players who want to purchase items from there (and thus help fund the game in that manner), and those who do not want the game to devolve into a ZT Online like mess.

Thelrage and I attempted to do so back on pages 67 and 72.

BJ
Primus and Alpha on the PTS/Swords of the Republic on The Shadowlands
Check out our own Character Page which includes music and Quest Lists

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Lostpenguins's Avatar


Lostpenguins
12.17.2012 , 01:07 PM | #873
Quote: Originally Posted by BJWyler View Post
I thought that was determined to be a moot point about 25 pages ago. Does it matter that their opinion of P2W is? It still won't change what you think P2W is, and yours probably won't change theirs. If you want to ask that question, then it is better to ask what you would feel or what you would do if the "official" and widely accepted definition of P2W was more in line in what they think and not what your opinion of it was (and vice versa for them).

The purpose we should be here now to fulfill is not to determine what P2W means (since it means different things to different people), but how can we find the ground in the middle that will allow the CM to be a viable option to be valuable to the players who want to purchase items from there (and thus help fund the game in that manner), and those who do not want the game to devolve into a ZT Online like mess.

Thelrage and I attempted to do so back on pages 67 and 72.

BJ
Did you see what I was responding to where the guy said, "IMO that is not P2W". If he wants to give his opinion w/out really explaining his stance than I'm going to ask.

Also, to me... there really isn't middle group. You circumvent ways that take in-game effort to acquire end-game gear by using Real-Life cash... that's going to make me quit the game. Simple as that.

BJWyler's Avatar


BJWyler
12.17.2012 , 01:28 PM | #874
Quote: Originally Posted by Lostpenguins View Post
Did you see what I was responding to where the guy said, "IMO that is not P2W". If he wants to give his opinion w/out really explaining his stance than I'm going to ask.

Also, to me... there really isn't middle group. You circumvent ways that take in-game effort to acquire end-game gear by using Real-Life cash... that's going to make me quit the game. Simple as that.
Yes I did, and found that I had enough of a grasp of where on the P2W line Exhaltia sat as to see the question as unnecessary. Certainly it is your prerogative to feel the way you do, the same as a left-wing or right-wing extremist politico refuses to see the middle ground and that the middle ground is better for the population as a whole. Which again can lead to the question I asked - if the "official" and widely accepted definition of P2W was in line with Exhaltia's definition, what would you do? Clearly, if SWTOR went that route you would quit SWTOR. But since in this hypothetical, this model would be accepted as not crossing the line in the Western Market, more games would implement this model and it would become the de facto standard. What would you do in that case?

BJ
Primus and Alpha on the PTS/Swords of the Republic on The Shadowlands
Check out our own Character Page which includes music and Quest Lists

and our YouTube Channel for Gameplay footage and more

Lostpenguins's Avatar


Lostpenguins
12.17.2012 , 01:40 PM | #875
Quote: Originally Posted by BJWyler View Post
Yes I did, and found that I had enough of a grasp of where on the P2W line Exhaltia sat as to see the question as unnecessary. Certainly it is your prerogative to feel the way you do, the same as a left-wing or right-wing extremist politico refuses to see the middle ground and that the middle ground is better for the population as a whole. Which again can lead to the question I asked - if the "official" and widely accepted definition of P2W was in line with Exhaltia's definition, what would you do? Clearly, if SWTOR went that route you would quit SWTOR. But since in this hypothetical, this model would be accepted as not crossing the line in the Western Market, more games would implement this model and it would become the de facto standard. What would you do in that case?

BJ
That's pretty obvious. I would stop playing MMO's. I don't play MMO's simply because they're MMO's. I play them because I have fun. If they turned into pure P2W then I would stop having fun... hence I'd stop playing them.

As for what Exhaltia said... none of it shows what he really thinks is P2W. Just showed that he didn't think ToR had turned in P2W in any sense of his definition. That's hardly understanding his definition. Regardless, not sure why you needed to put your foot down. Neither of us were getting belligerent in our discussion of this topic.

Also, I'm in agreement that BW will do what's best for it's company. In the end, that's making the most profit quarter after quarter. Doesn't mean I want to be a part of that game though... so please don't blow this out to some extremes in politics please. This is a game I pay to play, not the country I live in or where my children will live in.

BJWyler's Avatar


BJWyler
12.17.2012 , 02:06 PM | #876
Quote: Originally Posted by Lostpenguins View Post
That's pretty obvious. I would stop playing MMO's. I don't play MMO's simply because they're MMO's. I play them because I have fun. If they turned into pure P2W then I would stop having fun... hence I'd stop playing them.
But is P2W exclusive to MMOs only? Couldn't any game that has some semblance of a multi-player component have a P2W type of model? That's where I was going with the hypothetical. I would have to think on it more, but I would think that even pure single-player games could also have a form of P2W. DLC for games started out that way to much outcry, and while some players still outright detest DLC in any form, the majority of the industry and player base have come to accept it as normal.

Quote: Originally Posted by Lostpenguins View Post
As for what Exhaltia said... none of it shows what he really thinks is P2W. Just showed that he didn't think ToR had turned in P2W in any sense of his definition. That's hardly understanding his definition. Regardless, not sure why you needed to put your foot down. Neither of us were getting belligerent in our discussion of this topic.
I thought it did, it seemed fairly clear to me, but that's besides the point. If it felt like I was putting my foot down, or that I implied your posts were belligerent, I apologize. I was simply pointing out the fact that Thelrage pointed out 25-30 pages ago, that debating what defines P2W is pointless and doesn't solve the issue of making SWTOR better for everyone to play.

Quote: Originally Posted by Lostpenguins View Post
Also, I'm in agreement that BW will do what's best for it's company. In the end, that's making the most profit quarter after quarter. Doesn't mean I want to be a part of that game though... so please don't blow this out to some extremes in politics please. This is a game I pay to play, not the country I live in or where my children will live in.
You are correct, this isn't a political debate, but my anology was to point out your "hard-line" stance as it was phrased - "there is no middle ground." I believe there can always be a middle ground, be it in real life or in a game. It's just a matter of people being open-minded enough to accept it and help find it. Certainly that does not mean everyone may be please with everything, but it certainly means we can find a happy medium. If we couldn't we, as a society, could not have gotten out of the stone age.

BJ
Primus and Alpha on the PTS/Swords of the Republic on The Shadowlands
Check out our own Character Page which includes music and Quest Lists

and our YouTube Channel for Gameplay footage and more

Lostpenguins's Avatar


Lostpenguins
12.17.2012 , 02:19 PM | #877
Quote: Originally Posted by BJWyler View Post
But is P2W exclusive to MMOs only? Couldn't any game that has some semblance of a multi-player component have a P2W type of model? That's where I was going with the hypothetical. I would have to think on it more, but I would think that even pure single-player games could also have a form of P2W. DLC for games started out that way to much outcry, and while some players still outright detest DLC in any form, the majority of the industry and player base have come to accept it as normal.
P2W for single-player games doesn't bother me because it's my choice. But I've seen people who are willing to throw large amounts of cash at games, and that's their choice... so long as it doesn't affect me.

Quote: Originally Posted by BJWyler View Post
I thought it did, it seemed fairly clear to me, but that's besides the point. If it felt like I was putting my foot down, or that I implied your posts were belligerent, I apologize. I was simply pointing out the fact that Thelrage pointed out 25-30 pages ago, that debating what defines P2W is pointless and doesn't solve the issue of making SWTOR better for everyone to play.
This is very true. It sort of is pointless, but I guess I felt I needed to respond to a guy who said, "No, this isn't an issue because, IMO, it's not P2W." If he had said, "I have no problems with this model as I don't believe it follows my definition of P2W," then that would be a different story. But he came off as saying that the complaints were pointless based solely on his own opinion.

Quote: Originally Posted by BJWyler View Post
You are correct, this isn't a political debate, but my anology was to point out your "hard-line" stance as it was phrased - "there is no middle ground." I believe there can always be a middle ground, be it in real life or in a game. It's just a matter of people being open-minded enough to accept it and help find it. Certainly that does not mean everyone may be please with everything, but it certainly means we can find a happy medium. If we couldn't we, as a society, could not have gotten out of the stone age.
And I disagree. I don't care to play or pay for a game that does something that I feel is truly breaking the integrity of progression in this game. It's sort of like Botting was in D2. It feels great to know that you earn your own windforce. The game lost it's flavor for me, when my buddy showed me his 6 Windforces because he was using a pindlebot... at least it's multi-player favor. Playing with people around you who are blowing up the mobs because they're uber-stacked isn't fun... it's even less fun when you know that the people didn't make any sort of effort to obtain that gear.

Suzina's Avatar


Suzina
12.17.2012 , 03:07 PM | #878
I don't care what the definition of P2W happens to be.

Offering gear that improves your stats of any kind (space, PVE, PVP, ect...) is unacceptable.

Space gear is best-in-slot for cash. That is unacceptable.
Member of Bane Fleet

Icebergy's Avatar


Icebergy
12.17.2012 , 03:32 PM | #879
Quote: Originally Posted by Lostpenguins View Post
Your point is flawed... at best.

First off... the premise clearly states "Which means they get gear for PvE faster than someone who doesn't."

Does the person who bought their Space 7 Upgrades get gear faster? Yes. You clearly pointed it out. Thus, the statement in quotes holds true. It doesn't mater if it helps in small way or a big way. P2W isn't defined by how much "winning" you get from paying. It's defined that there is any "winning" to be had from paying. And that holds true.

Once again, most people here aren't upset with the ship upgrades, in of themselves. Most People are upset because a line was clearly crossed that went from "no end game gear available on the Cartel Market" to "some end game gear available on the Cartel Market". Doesn't matter if it was one item, or a couple... the line was crossed. The fact that BW seems to think, "Hey, no big deal" worries many of us that they'll just keep pushing the line. Those people, like me, are just letting BW know, if they want to keep doing this they'll soon see that they're on their way to pushing the remaining bulk of their leftover subs out the door. It's not there yet, but they definitely opened the door.
This. This is why I canceled my sub. I want them to know that they crossed the line, and that they had better not keep blundering forward, or myself and many others are gone.
Unsubscribed due to no new Operations.
I am happy that there will be a renewed focus on story, I love story, its why I picked this MMO. But I picked an MMO, not an episodic single player RPG that I have to pay a subscription to receive the episodes.

Guancyto's Avatar


Guancyto
12.17.2012 , 04:15 PM | #880
Quote: Originally Posted by BJWyler View Post
But is P2W exclusive to MMOs only?
There's no need to deal in hypotheticals. My brother was playing a Stargunner clone on his tablet a couple of weeks ago. For those not familiar, it's a sidescrolling space shooter with a lot of customization regarding what you can put on your ship.

For a dollar, you can acquire as much in-game currency as you would be able to make playing the game through a couple of times over. It's enough to buy all the best stuff for your ship to utterly smash the first level. Single player, on a tablet, with simplistic gameplay. It has Pay to Win.

It's just that nobody cares because it's a silly tablet game, not a would-be AAA MMORPG.