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Pay2Win Space Missions ???

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Suzina's Avatar


Suzina
12.17.2012 , 06:22 AM | #851
Quote: Originally Posted by Nehoda_Niux View Post
It's not "Pay To Win". What are you "winning"? Is this some sort of competition?
This is in contradiction with the following statement:

Quote: Originally Posted by Nehoda_Niux View Post
If I can get Black Hole Comms from doing the new missions, then I have yet another way to *earn* the nicer gear which will *help* my fellow teammates when we are raiding.
People who do the whole raiding thing every week tend to be the Achiever type on the Bartle personality test. Here's what is written on the Wikipedia about that personality type:


Quote: Originally Posted by the wikipedia
Also known as "Diamonds," these are players who prefer to gain "points," levels, equipment and other concrete measurements of succeeding in a game. They will go to great lengths to achieve rewards that confer them little or no gameplay benefit simply for the prestige of having it.


Multi-player appeal to the Achiever
One of the appeals of online gaming to the Achiever is that he or she has the opportunity to show off their skill and hold elite status to others. They value (or despise) the competition from other Achievers, and look to the Socializers to give them praise. ...

In many ways, the Achiever is the style of play most targeted by the MMORPG genre. In many successful MMOs, there is always something else to achieve; even when the character has reached the highest level, there are usually rare items to obtain and objectives that were bypassed the first time around. Since Achievers can sometimes set very obscure goals for themselves, especially if they feel like they'll be (among) the first to achieve them, they may spend long periods of time engaging in a repetitive action in order to get one more award.

So for achievers, in order to compete on an even playing field with people spending real-life cash, you must spend it as well. That sucks. We don't even get to earn our gear, we have to buy it first, then do the missions. That's stupid and makes me angry. I'm not an angry person, but this pay-to-win business after they explicitly stated PVE would not be affected by the cartel market has me punching my car and swearing obscenities.
Member of Bane Fleet

Suzina's Avatar


Suzina
12.17.2012 , 06:37 AM | #852
Lets see what Jeff Hickman has to say about Pay to win....
Quote:
Q: The major question about F2P; when any F2P project is announced or talked about is whatís gonna be in the cash shop? Lets just put this question out there in as plain and as simple form as possible. Whatís your stance on Pay to Win?

A: Pay to win is not something that we like. I donít want to unbalance the game by putting things out on the store that somebody can walk in on day one, buy and be the winner.
Sounds good. I wish they had stuck to that with space. Lets see what else he has to say.

Quote:
Having said that, there will be some things that we put out in the store that do enhance power value in some way, but not at the top end.
Not the top end? So just like the crystals that you can equip at a lower level and have end-game stats right?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm Not like, max-level space parts the first day that they're added that require stabalizers and hundreds of fleet comms to craft? Not the top end? More to say have you?

Quote:
Trying to think of a good example. We may put a medium level blue piece of armor on the cash shop for example.

We might do that. We havenít decided and weíre still talking about this, but itís one of those things it is like Ö most players will have something better than this anyway, but if you donít hereís the way that you can get a leg up to at least make you equal with the normal players.
Did most players have better than best-in-slot space gear? No, I guess that is technically not possible.

Quote:
That is kind of where our thinking is at, but we are still discussing it. But we do not believe in Pay to Win.
I'm going to go punch my car now.
Member of Bane Fleet

BJWyler's Avatar


BJWyler
12.17.2012 , 09:01 AM | #853
Quote: Originally Posted by Andermann View Post
Just curious, but what's the point of playing after you've bought the best, and then maybe done the end game content once through?
Same reason I still play Esseles and Black Talon (and watch each and every cutscene in its fullest). Because I enjoy the content and what that content offers. The rewards are just a perk. 90% of the quest rewards I get throughout each planet are not any better than what my toon is already wearing. I still play them because I enjoy the experience.

Quote: Originally Posted by Icebergy View Post
Lets pretend that you and I are in the same guild, we play the same spec, and are equally skilled. Lets say a new tier of content comes out, and with it the game goes pay to win. You immediately buy your gear from the store, but I don't. All the sudden you and I go from equally geared to you being far better geared than I. So you start pulling more DPS, and because you do more DPS, you get to raid a lot more than I do.

Not only that, but then our other guild DPS look at your numbers and think, 'wow, I have to buy gear too to catch up'. So then one person and then another all buy their gear. Shortly it becomes the norm for our guild, and the guild shuns anyone that doesn't buy gear. Then all the sudden our guild is the top guild on the server, and all the other guilds start having the same philosophy to keep up.
That argument is not logically valid. The reason one "should" be in a guild is that they enjoy playing with the people in that guild because they enjoy playing in the same manner. Just like hanging out with a bunch of real life friends. We all enjoy doing the same thing and share the same interests. Not to say there are things that we wouldn't disagree upon, but overall we have the same outlook on life. Just like real life friends, if a guild shows that they don't show the same interests that I do, I go find another guild.

BJ
Primus and Alpha on the PTS/Swords of the Republic on The Shadowlands
Check out our own Character Page which includes music and Quest Lists

and our YouTube Channel for Gameplay footage and more

Blackardin's Avatar


Blackardin
12.17.2012 , 09:01 AM | #854
Quote: Originally Posted by Suzina View Post

So for achievers, in order to compete on an even playing field with people spending real-life cash, you must spend it as well. That sucks. We don't even get to earn our gear, we have to buy it first, then do the missions. That's stupid and makes me angry. I'm not an angry person, but this pay-to-win business after they explicitly stated PVE would not be affected by the cartel market has me punching my car and swearing obscenities.
You can earn 100 coms and 100k a day doing the older missions (takes about an hour). That is how you would earn the parts.
May the Schwartz be with you....

Blackardin's Avatar


Blackardin
12.17.2012 , 09:08 AM | #855
Quote: Originally Posted by Tonymitsu View Post

1. The player who shells out the money can begin completing the new Heroic Space missions right away. Which gives them another source of Black Hole comms. Which means they get gear for PvE faster than someone who doesn't. This is "Pay to Win" in every sense of the phrase. You are deluding yourself if you can't see this.
How are you arriving at this conclusion?

According to Dulfy, I can earn 14 Black hole coms per week doing this. You can earn 159 per week grinding. It takes 495 coms to fully gear. That means that it will take me 35 weeks to fully gear doing these space missions, and it would take you just 3.1 weeks to do so.

I hardly see this as an issue that would require some 85 pages of hysteria of the magnitude I am seeing in this thread, and it is certainly not what one could call, "play to win".
May the Schwartz be with you....

BJWyler's Avatar


BJWyler
12.17.2012 , 09:21 AM | #856
Quote: Originally Posted by Blackardin View Post
How are you arriving at this conclusion?

According to Dulfy, I can earn 14 Black hole coms per week doing this. You can earn 159 per week grinding. It takes 495 coms to fully gear. That means that it will take me 35 weeks to fully gear doing these space missions, and it would take you just 3.1 weeks to do so.

I hardly see this as an issue that would require some 85 pages of hysteria of the magnitude I am seeing in this thread, and it is certainly not what one could call, "play to win".
Oh come on, you have been in gaming forums as long as I have. You should know by now that logic and reasoning have no business in a place called "General Forums."

Quote: Originally Posted by Urael View Post
Again how is a subscription paying to win. It's paying for the service as intended. This is a dangerous, dangerous and cancerous "repurposing" of words. Paying a subscription is the intended idea. Playing for free is not and should never be. Games are a luxury. They are not and never should be given away for free. Ever. You and your camp are spinning and twisting the definition of Pay to Win to make subscribers appear as the bad guy. It is your camp that is the bad guy here. You are following Alinsky's Rules for Radicals when you do that. And that is reprehensible.
But services change. This is no longer a subscription based model of a game, therefore the rules have changed. The rest of your post really stands out though. Where is the Gaming Bible that says games are a luxury? Where does it say they should never be given away for free (the millions of pirates out there would disagree with you I think). It is not your place to say what someone does with their own creation. If someone wants to spend their time and money to create a game and give it away for free, then that is their prerogative. You may not like it, but then again I never heard that life was supposed to be fair or that we were supposed to like everything life handed to us (and those that do say that are ... well, my mother did tell me that if I didn't have anything nice to say...)

BJ
Primus and Alpha on the PTS/Swords of the Republic on The Shadowlands
Check out our own Character Page which includes music and Quest Lists

and our YouTube Channel for Gameplay footage and more

Icebergy's Avatar


Icebergy
12.17.2012 , 09:47 AM | #857
Quote: Originally Posted by Blackardin View Post
If you are making this childish rant as a means of insulting me for being honest about my intent. I can live with that. ;p

Subscribers bailed on this game by the boatload. New content was held as a result and resources redirected. The game was dying a slow death prior to CC. A few of us held on hoping for a revitalization. It came in the form of CC and a decision to move in a different direction rather then let the game go.

New players that enjoy the CC have flocked in. Servers are now as full as I've ever seen them, new content has been released, people are having fun again. The entire industry is slowly exploring this option and moving in that direction. Players, obvious by the numbers, are moving there also. I see no indication that the "integrity" of the game (whatever that may mean to you) is in danger of being soiled because I purchased nine dollars worth of pixels for a single player aspect of the game rather then grind for three months before I had a chance to play that aspect of the game.

If you disagree with what is happening, I can respect that, but you are not being totally honest as to your reasons, because an theory based on that thesis statement would be rather ridiculous.
I am not entirely sure that you understand my point, and I think you and I may have had a bit of a misunderstanding. I don't really care about the space parts, I don't like them in the market, but it is not a big deal to me.

What I am very concerned about, and what your comments made me think that you support, is end game PvE and/or PvP gear on the market. Schubert's response to the complaints are what have me worried. What he said sounds like they intend to make the game pay to win, as in selling end game gear, and I am absolutely against that.
10/10 NiM, 4/4 NiM, NMP, 7/12 NiM, HM GF, 4/5 NiM, 7/10 HM

Icebergy's Avatar


Icebergy
12.17.2012 , 09:51 AM | #858
Quote: Originally Posted by BJWyler View Post
That argument is not logically valid. The reason one "should" be in a guild is that they enjoy playing with the people in that guild because they enjoy playing in the same manner. Just like hanging out with a bunch of real life friends. We all enjoy doing the same thing and share the same interests. Not to say there are things that we wouldn't disagree upon, but overall we have the same outlook on life. Just like real life friends, if a guild shows that they don't show the same interests that I do, I go find another guild.

BJ
Not everyone has the same goals and outlook as you. It may not be an issue for a very casual guild, but I guarantee there is a significant portion of the population that it will absolutely happen to. Step outside your box and try to see things from other people's perspective.
10/10 NiM, 4/4 NiM, NMP, 7/12 NiM, HM GF, 4/5 NiM, 7/10 HM

BJWyler's Avatar


BJWyler
12.17.2012 , 09:53 AM | #859
Quote: Originally Posted by Icebergy View Post
Not everyone has the same goals and outlook as you. It may not be an issue for a very casual guild, but I guarantee there is a significant portion of the population that it will absolutely happen to. Step outside your box and try to see things from other people's perspective.
I do. As far as I know nothing prevents someone from finding new friends and a new guild. You'll have to forgive me if I don't take your guarantee for it - as far as I know, crystal balls are a thing of fantasy. I base my views upon my world-life experience. Not once have I been unable to find friends or guilds (some extremely competitive) that did not share the same common philosophies. Perhaps you should try stepping out of your box and looking around for them.

BJ
Primus and Alpha on the PTS/Swords of the Republic on The Shadowlands
Check out our own Character Page which includes music and Quest Lists

and our YouTube Channel for Gameplay footage and more

Icebergy's Avatar


Icebergy
12.17.2012 , 09:59 AM | #860
Quote: Originally Posted by BJWyler View Post
I do. As far as I know nothing prevents someone from finding new friends and a new guild. You'll have to forgive me if I don't take your guarantee for it - as far as I know, crystal balls are a thing of fantasy. I base my views upon my world-life experience. Not once have I been unable to find friends or guilds (some extremely competitive) that did not share the same common philosophies. Perhaps you should try stepping out of your box and looking around for them.

BJ
TLDR version= "No u"
10/10 NiM, 4/4 NiM, NMP, 7/12 NiM, HM GF, 4/5 NiM, 7/10 HM