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Pay2Win Space Missions ???

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DAMossimo's Avatar


DAMossimo
12.16.2012 , 07:58 PM | #841
Quote: Originally Posted by Aziran View Post
I...I don't know what to say...

All those times I posted about SW:ToR inevitably failing because WoW was the elephant in the room.

"No, SWTOR will kill WoW! You'll see."

I just feel a sense of...Its a bitter sweet victory.

Bitter in the sense that I can not gloat to all of the fanboys whom I flamed during early release. Though if you're out
there. Yeah. Good work. You're the Republicans of the MMO universe, and this game was your Romney. Good job!

Now. I'm off back to the Mists of Obama.
It's pretty disturbing you get off on this situation.

There's a significant population of people here who never played, compared, or wished this game would hurt WoW in any way (I would fall into all 3 categories).

The Fanboys will undoubtably ride this ship to the bottom of the ocean so your gloating isn't going to be pertinent to them until the plug is pulled sometime far in the future.

fungihoujo's Avatar


fungihoujo
12.16.2012 , 07:59 PM | #842
Quote: Originally Posted by Taorus View Post
1.No...My Mother and Father taught me to think for myself and avoid the herd mentality.

2. Because he who shall not be named....Gave me free will. ( and its not Lord Voldemort )
I was about to say- that doesn't sound like the Voldemort I know.

But ya- it's not really p2w- you can do a few days worth of dailies and just buy the space items with credits.

mothear's Avatar


mothear
12.16.2012 , 08:09 PM | #843
Quote: Originally Posted by atduncan View Post
So if it was actual gear, would this still apply?
If you cannot get the gear in any way apart from buying it on the CM then I would say that is P2W.

However I would not be in favour of putting top end PVE/PVP gear (which I will never have because I don't raid in this game) on the CM because of the impact on crafting.

funkhouse's Avatar


funkhouse
12.16.2012 , 08:58 PM | #844
realy? 85 pages of people crying about space missions? And lol@pay2win for space missions...Why not just come out and say hey im a crafter and im pissed that some one can spend 5 bucks on the CC to buy a pack of parts when the market is in the millions for just 1 item. After all thats why you are crying aint it?

Tonymitsu's Avatar


Tonymitsu
12.16.2012 , 09:02 PM | #845
Quote: Originally Posted by JovethGonzalez View Post
Hi everyone,

I've spoken to the design team about the issue of Grade 7 ship upgrades and the cost in game (resources and time) versus the cost on the Cartel Market, since this concern was raised by a number of people on our forums.

Our Lead Designer for the game, Damion Schubert, has this to say:

Unfortunately, there is, in fact, a great disparity between these two costs. We want to apologize for this, as there was a miscommunication internally on how valuable these upgrades were, how challenging they should be to earn, and how fast a player should be able to earn them.
A miscommunication you say?
For the sake of argument let's say a casual player has a single level 50 toon... they don't belong to a raiding guild... and have enough time to play the game for roughly two hours a day. I'd say that definition of "casual" is more than generous.
It's a foregone conclusion that a casual player is required to have Grade 7 to succeed at these missions.
Grade 7 will cost you exactly 300k credits, 1500 Fleet Comms and 300 Daily Comms to get all the non-schematic parts.
Our player earns roughly 200k credits per day doing space missions and Section X. He also earns a maximum of 100 fleet comms per day over an hour and 10 minutes of space missions (assuming he completes all of the bonuses and does not fail at any point). Due to the 16 daily comms from Section X and the two-hour or so time limit, Black Hole, Belsavis, and Illum are no longer worth doing. That means at minimum it will take him 17 straight days of grinding in order to earn all the non-schematic components.
Even if we assume his toon is a Cybertech capable of learning the two schematics... they both require another 700 comms, each, to buy, which means another 14 days of grinding... and to craft them requires enriched durasteel, molecular stabilizers, and other materials he does not have access to as a non-raider. So the most expedient method would be to use his leftover earnings from the previous seventeen days to buy them from the GTN, where he might get lucky and spend just over a million for both of them.

OR

He can shell out the real money to purchase the upgrade bundle from the Cartel market and have everything he needs in before he even starts playing on the first day.
Let's also remember that his all of his play time is completely consumed by grinding for space ship parts... and every day he gets bored and decides to do something else only increases the time it will take to finish.

Miscommunication is a pretty massive understatement here.
It would probably be much easier to just say you done ****ed up. Hard.


Quote: Originally Posted by JovethGonzalez View Post
We are currently looking at solutions that cause the least amount of frustration for all players affected, while keeping the integrity of both the Cartel Market and the game intact.

It is not our intent to make the Cartel Market the “way to play" the game—we want you to feel that both the Cartel Market and earning gear in game are viable options as far as value goes, neither being far more efficient or effective than the other.

We truly hope you enjoy the challenge of the new Heroic Space Missions and apologize again for what we hope is a small distraction.

I want to reiterate that we are actively looking at solutions and they will be communicated to you as soon as we have a solid plan.[/I]

Thank you for your patience.
The problems as they stand are currently as follows:

1. The player who shells out the money can begin completing the new Heroic Space missions right away. Which gives them another source of Black Hole comms. Which means they get gear for PvE faster than someone who doesn't. This is "Pay to Win" in every sense of the phrase. You are deluding yourself if you can't see this.

2. Assuming you have an expert knowledge of the space space combat system and know all it's ins and outs and can effectively memorize the best order and locations to use spaceship abilities... the new missions are still extremely difficult without the new upgrades. To everyone else they are a complete curb-stomp in favor of the computer, requiring a solid month of dedicated work before you can even attempt them.

3. To even suggest that doing the proposed grind is supposed to be in any way comparable to the Cartel Market is insulting in the extreme. The market instantly eliminates four weeks of work with a click of the button. Even if it eliminated only one week of work it would still be a no-brainer if you wanted to do the new missions. This whole situation is a blatant cash grab on your part. A shameless attempt to coerce people who already subscribe to this game to buy Cartel Coins. Sitting there saying, "Oops", and trying to pretend it was an internal misunderstanding only makes things worse.
██Jedi Sentinel.
〘ị▀!]\\\\\[▀▀▀[°δ]▀!7█████████████████████████████████)
"Peace at any cost."

lorelthesecond's Avatar


lorelthesecond
12.16.2012 , 11:25 PM | #846
Quote: Originally Posted by Tonymitsu View Post
A miscommunication you say?
For the sake of argument let's say a casual player has a single level 50 toon... they don't belong to a raiding guild... and have enough time to play the game for roughly two hours a day. I'd say that definition of "casual" is more than generous.
It's a foregone conclusion that a casual player is required to have Grade 7 to succeed at these missions.
Grade 7 will cost you exactly 300k credits, 1500 Fleet Comms and 300 Daily Comms to get all the non-schematic parts.
Our player earns roughly 200k credits per day doing space missions and Section X. He also earns a maximum of 100 fleet comms per day over an hour and 10 minutes of space missions (assuming he completes all of the bonuses and does not fail at any point). Due to the 16 daily comms from Section X and the two-hour or so time limit, Black Hole, Belsavis, and Illum are no longer worth doing. That means at minimum it will take him 17 straight days of grinding in order to earn all the non-schematic components.
Even if we assume his toon is a Cybertech capable of learning the two schematics... they both require another 700 comms, each, to buy, which means another 14 days of grinding... and to craft them requires enriched durasteel, molecular stabilizers, and other materials he does not have access to as a non-raider. So the most expedient method would be to use his leftover earnings from the previous seventeen days to buy them from the GTN, where he might get lucky and spend just over a million for both of them.

OR

He can shell out the real money to purchase the upgrade bundle from the Cartel market and have everything he needs in before he even starts playing on the first day.
Let's also remember that his all of his play time is completely consumed by grinding for space ship parts... and every day he gets bored and decides to do something else only increases the time it will take to finish.

Miscommunication is a pretty massive understatement here.
It would probably be much easier to just say you done ****ed up. Hard.




The problems as they stand are currently as follows:

1. The player who shells out the money can begin completing the new Heroic Space missions right away. Which gives them another source of Black Hole comms. Which means they get gear for PvE faster than someone who doesn't. This is "Pay to Win" in every sense of the phrase. You are deluding yourself if you can't see this.

2. Assuming you have an expert knowledge of the space space combat system and know all it's ins and outs and can effectively memorize the best order and locations to use spaceship abilities... the new missions are still extremely difficult without the new upgrades. To everyone else they are a complete curb-stomp in favor of the computer, requiring a solid month of dedicated work before you can even attempt them.

3. To even suggest that doing the proposed grind is supposed to be in any way comparable to the Cartel Market is insulting in the extreme. The market instantly eliminates four weeks of work with a click of the button. Even if it eliminated only one week of work it would still be a no-brainer if you wanted to do the new missions. This whole situation is a blatant cash grab on your part. A shameless attempt to coerce people who already subscribe to this game to buy Cartel Coins. Sitting there saying, "Oops", and trying to pretend it was an internal misunderstanding only makes things worse.
Great post it sums up everything thats wrong with the new pay to win items on the Cartel Market.

Blackardin's Avatar


Blackardin
12.17.2012 , 12:24 AM | #847
Quote: Originally Posted by Icebergy View Post
It is absolutely about the integrity of the game, and I love how you have quoted just about everything I posted in the last couple pages except where I explain to you how it does in fact ruin the game's integrity. Bury your head in the sand a little more and just keep shouting "ME ME ME ME ME".
If you are making this childish rant as a means of insulting me for being honest about my intent. I can live with that. ;p

Subscribers bailed on this game by the boatload. New content was held as a result and resources redirected. The game was dying a slow death prior to CC. A few of us held on hoping for a revitalization. It came in the form of CC and a decision to move in a different direction rather then let the game go.

New players that enjoy the CC have flocked in. Servers are now as full as I've ever seen them, new content has been released, people are having fun again. The entire industry is slowly exploring this option and moving in that direction. Players, obvious by the numbers, are moving there also. I see no indication that the "integrity" of the game (whatever that may mean to you) is in danger of being soiled because I purchased nine dollars worth of pixels for a single player aspect of the game rather then grind for three months before I had a chance to play that aspect of the game.

If you disagree with what is happening, I can respect that, but you are not being totally honest as to your reasons, because an theory based on that thesis statement would be rather ridiculous.
May the Schwartz be with you....

Blackardin's Avatar


Blackardin
12.17.2012 , 12:31 AM | #848
Quote:
3. To even suggest that doing the proposed grind is supposed to be in any way comparable to the Cartel Market is insulting in the extreme. The market instantly eliminates four weeks of work with a click of the button. Even if it eliminated only one week of work it would still be a no-brainer if you wanted to do the new missions. This whole situation is a blatant cash grab on your part. A shameless attempt to coerce people who already subscribe to this game to buy Cartel Coins. Sitting there saying, "Oops", and trying to pretend it was an internal misunderstanding only makes things worse.
The key word in all this is "work". I do not pay, or play to "work". This is my down time. I do so to have fun. This grants me the option to do just that regardless of theoretical arguments to the contrary.

That being said, I do agree with you, though I would have stated it in far less words and with far less emotion. They should be balanced to a greater extent. They have stated that they will do so. We shall see.
May the Schwartz be with you....

Nehoda_Niux's Avatar


Nehoda_Niux
12.17.2012 , 05:31 AM | #849
Why have so many people gotten out their torches and pitchforks?

Being able to buy the Grade 7 ship upgrades is a great time saver, especially for people who don't have 16 hours a day to sit in front of a computer and grind mind-numbingly for the Fleet Comms needed to buy the space gear.

If I am going to spend 16 hours in front of the computer, I want it to be fun, not an arduous task.

If I can bypass the grind in this single-person aspect of the game and get directly into playing the missions, then all the better.

If I can get Black Hole Comms from doing the new missions, then I have yet another way to *earn* the nicer gear which will *help* my fellow teammates when we are raiding.

Some people have lots of time to devote to grinding, but not much currency. Others have lots of currency to devote, but not much time. It's a tradeoff. You do what you enjoy and what fits best for you.

It's not "Pay To Win". What are you "winning"? Is this some sort of competition? As far as I know, outside of PvP we are only competing with ourselves and the NPCs in-game.

Please put away your torches and pitchforks and learn to enjoy yourselves. This is a game. It is a recreation. A *leisure* activity. Calm down and have fun!

symke's Avatar


symke
12.17.2012 , 06:07 AM | #850
Quote: Originally Posted by Nehoda_Niux View Post
Why have so many people gotten out their torches and pitchforks?

Being able to buy the Grade 7 ship upgrades is a great time saver, especially for people who don't have 16 hours a day to sit in front of a computer and grind mind-numbingly for the Fleet Comms needed to buy the space gear.

If I am going to spend 16 hours in front of the computer, I want it to be fun, not an arduous task.

If I can bypass the grind in this single-person aspect of the game and get directly into playing the missions, then all the better.

If I can get Black Hole Comms from doing the new missions, then I have yet another way to *earn* the nicer gear which will *help* my fellow teammates when we are raiding.

Some people have lots of time to devote to grinding, but not much currency. Others have lots of currency to devote, but not much time. It's a tradeoff. You do what you enjoy and what fits best for you.

It's not "Pay To Win". What are you "winning"? Is this some sort of competition? As far as I know, outside of PvP we are only competing with ourselves and the NPCs in-game.

Please put away your torches and pitchforks and learn to enjoy yourselves. This is a game. It is a recreation. A *leisure* activity. Calm down and have fun!
What about those that don't have either money or time? Don't you think this system should be good for them as well?