Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Pay2Win Space Missions ???

First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

Urael's Avatar


Urael
12.14.2012 , 12:57 PM | #721
Quote: Originally Posted by dpwms View Post
I love this thread!

But...

It is clear from what has been said that anyone who subscribes to the game, even if they don't buy anything from the cartel shop, is paying to win. All of the subscriber benefits are unnecessary to get to level 50, therefore they are all convenience items to circumvent various challenges of the "real" game (the F2P game) such as limited hotbars, not being able to equip artifact level gear (a terrible crutch for those who can't play the game anyway), etc.

So, everyone who is bemoaning pay to win but is a subscriber is a hypocrit.
This is an example of Hyperbole.

You are flat out WRONG.

This is a game. It has a rule set and conditions for victory. The game ORIGINALLY was ONLY intended to be a SUBSCRIPTION game. The rule set and conditions for victory and "features" to abide by said rule set to achieve said victories were provided as a "service" for the price of the subscription. Ergo the value of those features is set at the price of the subscription.

To say that subscribers are pay to win is a fallacy since the original intent was for customers to subscribe and the features provided were given as a service for the price of the subscription.

With the advent of F2P/Freemium being applied to what was solely a subscription game, it is the players who pay a la cart, or pay nothing, that if offered everything that a subscriber has, would be diminising the value of what subscribers are paying to play SWTOR.

If you want all the features of a subscriber, you have only one option: SUBSCRIBE.

This is a penalty model for a reason; EAware wants you to subscribe.

This is also ironic for two reasons, that you can't see this, and that EAware doesn't understand that we see through their spin on why they went free to play in the first place.

Again, your view is scewed by the culture of the day that says "everyone is special therefore eveyone must have everything equally". This view is also wrong. In a world were "everyone is special", no one is. In a world where everyone is "given everything" ambition dies and mediocrity becomes the "spice of the day". That world is bland. I want to live in a world with "bold colors". I want my games to be same way.

FortunesDemise's Avatar


FortunesDemise
12.14.2012 , 01:16 PM | #722
Quote: Originally Posted by Blackardin View Post
Ok now you are starting to sound like a whiny kid here. Not going to do this with you. I've already said that I think they should be craftable, but what you seem to want is to corner the market and subject the rest of us to your crafting, your prices without any other option. That's never going to happen as it is little more then out of the frying pan into the fire.



Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. I don't like mindless grinding, day after day doing the same mind numbing thing. That's not fun to me. Fun is playing the game as I choose as my time permits. That would be crafting, space missions, raiding, leveling. What you seem to be saying is that I should play according to your desires. My fifteen a month, your choice of how I play?



The economy is still robust enough that I'm still selling my crafted and farmed items as much as I was before the patch. I have all the crafters including cybertech. Heck, I'm still selling grade two and four ship upgrades, mods, mats, weapons, armor, hilts. I've seen no difference. The economy issue seems to be a red herring argument.
First you don't have to buy "my" items at "my" price there are other crafters that have acess to much more mats than I do which over time will drive the price down. See supply and demand. I'm not trying to corner the market, just play the game how I want, what kind of one way street is that!? Plus there is another way to get the items rather than fleet come, wait a little while and buy them off the gtn as more and more people earn extra fleet come and supply extra parts to the community.

I am not saying you shouldn't get to play the way you want. What I am getting at is, because you have extra money laying around than myself or others, doesn't mean you should get special privileges in skipping the grind coming from a subscribers pov.

Just because you don't notice the price of inflation doesn't me it doesn't exist. Yea it fluxuates daily but it still has an effect on the over end result.

dpwms's Avatar


dpwms
12.14.2012 , 01:33 PM | #723
Quote: Originally Posted by Urael View Post
This is an example of Hyperbole.

You are flat out WRONG.
No, the conditions set forth for something to be "pay to win" include making cash payments for things that allow one to enjoy, 1) extra convenience that makes the game easier and, 2) circumvention of gameplay (grinding). Subscribers receive both of those benefits, and therefore they are in fact paying to win. If a person who decries "pay to win" wants to be conistent and avoid hypocrisy, they must go F2P.

Urael's Avatar


Urael
12.14.2012 , 01:37 PM | #724
Quote: Originally Posted by dpwms View Post
No, the conditions set forth for something to be "pay to win" include making cash payments for things that allow one to enjoy, 1) extra convenience that makes the game easier and, 2) circumvention of gameplay (grinding). Subscribers receive both of those benefits, and therefore they are in fact paying to win. If a person who decries "pay to win" wants to be conistent and avoid hypocrisy, they must go F2P.
I am not going to argue with you on this. You are flat out wrong. You are trying to "spin" to "justify" your view. This is at it's heart a subscription game. It may have "morphed" into a Freemium model that "includes" a F2P "option" but, the base rule set is tuned for paying for a service.

I will counter one final time with this. It would be like me calling all Freemium members "free loaders" and "entitled" because they want everything for "free". This of course is hyperbole because one can not fully realize the intentions of those that choose to play in the "free option".

You are being obtuse.

Shoogli's Avatar


Shoogli
12.14.2012 , 01:48 PM | #725
Quote: Originally Posted by Urael View Post
You are being obtuse.
Is he being red obtuse or blue obtuse ?

Shoogli | Jawa Droid Designer
Do not Follow me on Twitter @NOWHERE | Dislike me on Facebook
[Do Not Contact Me] [Rules of Misconduct] [F.A.Q.] [Shoogli Tracker]

dpwms's Avatar


dpwms
12.14.2012 , 01:51 PM | #726
Quote: Originally Posted by Urael View Post
I am not going to argue with you on this. You are flat out wrong. You are trying to "spin" to "justify" your view. This is at it's heart a subscription game.
Sorry but my statement is pretty simple. By the definition(s) of the anti "pay to win" people, those who subscribe are paying to win. It is my opinion that anyone here who advocates against features that they call "pay to win" is a hypocrit if they subscribe.

dpwms's Avatar


dpwms
12.14.2012 , 01:52 PM | #727
Quote: Originally Posted by Shoogli View Post
Is he being red obtuse or blue obtuse ?

Lobscouse, actually.

Urael's Avatar


Urael
12.14.2012 , 01:56 PM | #728
Quote: Originally Posted by dpwms View Post
Sorry but my statement is pretty simple. By the definition(s) of the anti "pay to win" people, those who subscribe are paying to win. It is my opinion that anyone here who advocates against features that they call "pay to win" is a hypocrit if they subscribe.
And your opinion in this case is demonstrably wrong else the counter statement I offerred is "true" which would be ridiculous.

You are wrong because you are assigning "intent". You are also wrong because your view doesn't support the "original rules set" nor the "morphed rules set". If anything my counter example offered in reductio ad absurdum is closer to reality.

DAMossimo's Avatar


DAMossimo
12.14.2012 , 01:59 PM | #729
So it's been 24 hours, and there is a patch scheduled for Tuesday, but no update or indication that it will address any of this?

One can only surmise that whatever they intend to do will benefit one group greatly, and hit another over the head with a stick, otherwise why not spill the beans already?

Friendly reminder: People are watching this closely and the bulk of subs are up for renewal over the weekend.

LUCASCASADEIS's Avatar


LUCASCASADEIS
12.14.2012 , 02:04 PM | #730
This is not P2W Because this is a Mini-Game