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Pay2Win Space Missions ???

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Kesphin's Avatar


Kesphin
12.14.2012 , 10:01 AM | #711
Quote: Originally Posted by JovethGonzalez View Post


We are currently looking at solutions that cause the least amount of frustration for all players affected, while keeping the integrity of both the Cartel Market and the game intact.
So you're waiting for these packs to be useless to fix the issue and get a lot of money with cartel shop... Do it or do not, there is no soon. Noone will believe you anymore.

LUCASCASADEIS's Avatar


LUCASCASADEIS
12.14.2012 , 10:29 AM | #712
Quote: Originally Posted by Kesphin View Post
So you're waiting for these packs to be useless to fix the issue and get a lot of money with cartel shop... Do it or do not, there is no soon. Noone will believe you anymore.
talk for you

monkgryphon's Avatar


monkgryphon
12.14.2012 , 10:50 AM | #713
Was there a thread this big complaining about first steps toward pay to win when they started selling endgame crystals in the Cartel market?

Urael's Avatar


Urael
12.14.2012 , 10:57 AM | #714
Quote: Originally Posted by Lostpenguins View Post
I don't get some of these people defending the angle that this is okay for these reasons:

1) It's not Pay To Win because you're not actually winning.
If they sold top end PvP gear on the CC Market, it doesn't guarantee you'll win right? In fact, you could end up losing every time you set foot in a WZ, but I'm pretty sure most people would consider this P2W as you're basically buying gear that usually takes in-game effort to obtain (effort by PvP'ing, effort to obtain the crafting mats, effort to buy items off the GTN by obtaining the credits necessary).

2) It's not Pay to Win because you're not directly competing against anyone
If they didn't sell PvP gear, but sold PvE gear, that's not directly competing against someone else. You're grouped with other people in a combined effort to down a scripted AI boss. You can say you're competing against others for "Server 1st" or "World 1st", but all this gear does is help you to down content faster. But that's exactly what the ship upgrades do. They help you complete those new missions faster and more easily which enables you to obtain credits and commendations.

3) It's a mini-game so doesn't impact anything else in the game
Please see by last item in #2. Because you obtain credits, comms that can buy crafting mats via the boxes, and BH comms for doing weekly quests you are now being rewarded with things beyond the scope of the mini-game... and because those new ship upgrades help you do it faster and more easily... it boils down to the fact that you're buying upgrades that help you obtain gear faster and more easily.

4) What does it matter to you?
Because buying gear with real life money circumvents the spirit of the MMO community. Before the CC Market everyone was obtaining their gear by effort in the game. Whether they spent time by raiding, doing Daily and Weekly Missions, doing quests to earn in-game credits to then buy the mats and gear, doing the space missions to earn comms to obtain crafting mats... all of these systems are in place meaning that the person is putting their effort into this game and time in this game.

When someone opens up their wallet, whips out their credit card, and buys those items on the Market they circumvent any in-game effort. They are buying their way to end-game items w/out making any in-game effort. That is at the very heart of Pay To Win.
^QFT ... This.

BJWyler's Avatar


BJWyler
12.14.2012 , 11:19 AM | #715
Quote: Originally Posted by TheIrage View Post
This to me is thinking on the right direction. I may not agree with everything you write, but I can sink my teeth on this one.

1) I don't see anything wrong with it other than perhaps diluting some of the achievement of obtaining new gear. I would add some sort of legacy unlock ( such as at least one character 50 has completed the operation/boss where such item is normally obtained) and/or a time gap ( only available X weeks after the original item was released).

2) Personally, this may be a tad far but still on the right direction. I would add (my opinion) a reasonable time gap, some sort of a quota/quantity limit, and maybe ( subject to debate) a reasonably high cost.

Again, great thoughts though.
That's what I was thinking, and don't mind your additions at all. I actually was thinking about a time lock - when new gear is released in game, make it only available in game for a few months before releasing it to the store.

My way of thinking is that one of the things I enjoy about playing RPGs is being able to deck out my toons the way I want (cosmetically speaking). Now that SWTOR is F2P, the bulk of the income will be coming from the CM, so if we want this game to survive (by making sure it stays profitable enough for EA not to cut the cord), then we need to make sure there is stuff in there that people are willing to pay for. The past few years have shown that cosmetic items are the boon for Cash Shops. BW also said that they want to make the Legacy system more viable. Here is the perfect opportunity to do both.

In my way of thinking, I get the most enjoyment out of games that offer different options on how to play content and obtain items:
1) Normal Gameplay
2) Buying items via in game currency
3) Cash Shop
A game with all three of those options for any particular piece of virtual item allows me the freedom to be able to enjoy the game irrespective of how much money I have in my wallet at the time or how much time I have to play at any particular point.

This way, by having both in game items as well as unique looking items available via the Cash Shop, we have the start of something that will allow players to deck out their toons the way they like the best, but still maintain some semblance of accomplishment for the in game achievements. Personally, I see no reason why someone who has at least one level 50 toon and completed all current content on that toon should not be able to get shortcuts to gearing up any alts they have - isn't saving time leveling alts one of the very purposes of the Legacy system to begin with? Why shouldn't gearing up alts be a part of that?

BJ
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Mateops's Avatar


Mateops
12.14.2012 , 12:19 PM | #716
Usually an topic such as this will bring out different reactions from people. I find that this reaction is strongly motivated by their current status in RL. Let me explain (these are only exemples):

Player one has low income but tons of time to play a game. He can be a student, unemployed or many other things, what it comes down to is in RL he does not have alot of shiny, usually no sports cars to flash etc. Player one has no one that dpends on him RL such as elderly parents or kids... So you logically player one will be able to spend alot of time playing, he will compensate for is lack on RL shiny with awsome toons, fully geared, he yawns during nightmare modes... Player one might be at the lower end in RL but ingame hes a star.

Player two has been around usually for a longuer period, he still plays video games when he gets the time, he has people that depned on him, a partner, kids or whatever. He would like to play more but if he did he would loose parts of his RL and would have to let down some of his responsabilities. When that guy logs on, its for one or two hours, before the wife home or he has to pick up the kids. His toons are poor, mostly geared in green, he does not know the flavor of the month on the market and grinding would take so long he would get to enjoy the fruits of his labors in months when the same fruits would probably be irrelevant.
These are extremes, but I made them to illustrate my point.

When you introduce a cash shop, well player one will be in an uproar, how dare they? They take away his only edge in life, how come people would pay for what he can get for free? Why does all his hours of play dont set him apart. He does not want a "pay to win", he wants a "time/grind to win".

Player two on the other hand wont understand why this guy is screaming because he spent the equivalent of a starbucks visit on some starship? Player two thinks player one is an ingame elitist, he got booted out of a raid because he did not know what the hell was going on. Player one thinks player two is a RL elitist that throws his money around and ridicules the small amounts spent on subscriptions and such.

These are just sterotypes, and most people are in between those. I think its interesting to see that players find "causes" to fight about but in reality they are only trying to defend their advantages, everyone wants to win and everyone wants the winning to be achieve by what they can do best.

I personally want to be player 3: A millionaire who pays and grinds and has it all... ;P

Durasturan's Avatar


Durasturan
12.14.2012 , 12:34 PM | #717
Quote: Originally Posted by kamed View Post
Its not pay to win since you still have to do the missions and meet all the objectives successfully. Its more like pay to not grind countless hours to get the gear. I support not grinding! Nobody has time for that
I think you're missing the point. BECAUSE of the difficulty of the content, the new tier of gear is basically a gate to even having a chance at beating it. Subscribers were told that we would never be charged for content...

Yet here subscribers are given an option, grind for 12 weeks to get a full set of gear so you have a chance
Or pay $15

These are not two equal options. The space missions shouldn't be so gated, you should be able to complete them WITH THE CURRENT TIER OF GEAR.

Imagine if they added a new tier of gear that had twice the stats of Dread Guard and the only way to get it was to spend 500 BH comms per piece or buy it for $1 a piece, then they tweaked all the FP's so that the bosses had twice as much health and did twice as much damage. There'd be no way you could beat them without the new gear, but it would take you weeks of grinding to play the only new content they're giving you.

Nemmar's Avatar


Nemmar
12.14.2012 , 12:46 PM | #718
Quote: Originally Posted by dpwms View Post
I love this thread!

But...

It is clear from what has been said that anyone who subscribes to the game, even if they don't buy anything from the cartel shop, is paying to win. All of the subscriber benefits are unnecessary to get to level 50, therefore they are all convenience items to circumvent various challenges of the "real" game (the F2P game) such as limited hotbars, not being able to equip artifact level gear (a terrible crutch for those who can't play the game anyway), etc.

So, everyone who is bemoaning pay to win but is a subscriber is a hypocrit.
This was an excellent point. Something to think about.

Goretzu's Avatar


Goretzu
12.14.2012 , 12:54 PM | #719
Quote: Originally Posted by dpwms View Post
So, everyone who is bemoaning pay to win but is a subscriber is a hypocrit.


That SWTOR has a bad version of F2P isn't a P2W issue, F2Pers are less equal certainly, but the only way to balance that is to do away with subscibers altogether and move to a 100% Cashshop system.

Which may no bad thing for current subscribers as they may well get much better deal for their $15 a month.
Real Star Wars space combat please, not Star Wars Fox! Maybe some PvP and flight too?
Goretzu's Law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving "Entitled" approaches 1

Calsetes's Avatar


Calsetes
12.14.2012 , 12:56 PM | #720
Quote: Originally Posted by Nemmar View Post
This was an excellent point. Something to think about.
But the subscribers will still have to pay a fee to use a purple-quality item should they not pay a monthly fee anymore, while the freebie player has to pay one fee one time to have permanent access to purple equipment on that one character. Literally everything the freebie players can buy with a one-time purchase, the subscribers keep paying a fee to have access to. The only exceptions to this rule, right now, are the credit limits, the ability to unlock Legacy things with credits beyond a certain point, and character slots (at least, until you can buy those on the shop.) Oh, and space / operation / flashpoint / PvP weekly amounts.

That's it. It's starting to remind me of Champions Online after a certain point, where the only benefits to having a subscription were freeform power selection and the ability to color your powers whatever color you wanted. They then sold the freeform power selection slots in the cash shop, making a subscriber pretty much nothing special beyond getting maybe $5 back in points every month for their constant $15 monthly investment. Really, unless you had a lifetime from when they offered it, there's no real benefit to subscribing there - and as much as I hate to say it, I can see this game starting to veer off in that direction.

Hopefully, this is just a minor swerve in the road and they correct it. I don't want to drop another game I like to play because I feel like I'm paying to be raked over the coals.
The average person thinks he isn't.
-Anonymous