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Pay2Win Space Missions ???

First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

DAMossimo's Avatar


DAMossimo
12.13.2012 , 04:02 PM | #651
Quote: Originally Posted by TripleMe View Post
So how soon can we expect Dread Guard and EWH gear to be available on the Cartel market ?
That date coincides with the day my son & I unsub and uninstall forever. Hopefully never.

Thehellfire's Avatar


Thehellfire
12.13.2012 , 04:04 PM | #652
Quote: Originally Posted by DAMossimo View Post
That date coincides with the day I & my son unsub and uninstall forever. Hopefully never.
They will, as well as directly sell BH comms or any comms. I expect them to start selling credits ala Eve

Macheath's Avatar


Macheath
12.13.2012 , 04:09 PM | #653
It is not our intent to make the Cartel Market the “way to play" the game—we want you to feel that both the Cartel Market and earning gear in game are viable options as far as value goes, neither being far more efficient or effective than the other.

Perhaps I'm reading too much into this statement, but this doesn't set my mind at ease. It sounds to me like they don't have a problem with the items being on the cartel market, but rather with the cost of the items when compared to how much work is required in-game to achieve the same result. This troubles me, as it doesn't sound like they are really hearing us. We don't want these sorts of things in the cash shop at all. We don't want pay to win at all. It's not that we're griping because the items don't cost enough, or because it's too hard to obtain them in-game. It's the principle of the thing that we take issue with.

There are two possible negative outcomes I see from this. First, they could reduce the amount of effort required to get the items through the in-game grinding, in order to cheapen them to the point that the cartel market purchase isn't as good a value. I feel this would be a mistake. There's already "not enough" to do at end-game by many player's standards. To reduce the investment required to obtain these items in-game won't help those complaints, and will diminish the achievement of obtaining the items (which is one of the complaints about making them available for a simple purchase; the lack of achievement.)

Second, they could raise the price of the cartel purchase, which doesn't actually solve any problems. The people who already have the items will still have them, for one thing, and the disparity in the time investment necessary to acquire the item through both paths will remain unchanged. Increasing the cost of the items in the cash shop still allows players to acquire them instantly in exchange for real money, and that's the root of the problem. The community is very clear that they do not want players to be able to bypass the mechanics of the game by paying money in the cash shop.

The best outcome, from my perspective, is to pull the items off the cartel market shelves. I still find it disturbing that BioWare thinks these items should be in the cash shop at all, no matter the price. The simple fact that they are there is "pay to win", and I'm not sure BioWare understands that.

-Macheath.
Remember, if the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off.

Mowermanx's Avatar


Mowermanx
12.13.2012 , 05:17 PM | #655
Quote: Originally Posted by SDTAXantos View Post
Best post in the thread.

Felioats's Avatar


Felioats
12.13.2012 , 05:25 PM | #656
If the prices and crafting material requirements are reduced, people who already bought or crafted these items might be upset. I certainly would be.

So that means refunds. But because the items are BOE and come from the Cartel Market as well, they can't simply award commendations and Enriched Durasteel to everyone with the items in their inventory. Well, they could, but it would be in excess. Though maybe it would be better than not doing refunds at all, if it comes to that.

Do you think it's feasible for them to run some sort of script on the logs, massive though they may be, to find out who bought the items and schematics with commendations or crafted them? Would they do such a thing, even if they can?
>

KryptikX's Avatar


KryptikX
12.13.2012 , 05:29 PM | #657
They don't have to create a script, they already have these sorts of tools (they've had to make equipment adjustments in the past, including people trying to scam the system). They know exactly what you've purchased, when you purchased it, and how much you paid for it.
Adapt or Die

grallmate's Avatar


grallmate
12.13.2012 , 05:36 PM | #658
Quote: Originally Posted by SDTAXantos View Post
+1

Old complaints:
- Space is on rails
- Space is to easy
- There is no incentive to do space

New complaints:
- Space is too had
- Space is P2W
- Space is on rails

People really will complain about anything. Space is a completely optional minigame with some minor incentives now that are limited. You get more comms from running TFB SM up to Dread Guard than you do from a whole week of space missions.

Personally, I'm glad I could buy the new gear and try out the new missions straight away. They are BRUTAL but they are awesome fun and a great challenge. Sure, they'll get stale in a little bit once I've beaten them all but I will probably keep running them because there is an incentive.

I also agree with Joveth. The disparity between buying the new parts with CC (which I did) and grinding them is the issue. Its the same as Rocket Boots, first thing I bought with CC but I refused to spend millions of creds on them. Get rid of the Stabilizers on the recipe and the crafted ones are competitive, as long as those remain a component they will never be lucrative for crafters because the cost price is so high and they are competing for mats with grade 26/27 mods which cover MUCH MUCH more of the game.

Its only P2W if:
- You can't get the best gear without buying it.
- You have to spend the money to remain competitive (ie. buying buffs).

It's getting close to P2W if:
- You can buy the best gear.

Anything less than that, is convenience and provides a way to bring people up to speed without grinding for intermediate tiers. I have no problem with someone being able to buy stock Campaign gear or War Hero so they can get straight into HM TFB or start grinding out EWH gear. These are both easy enough to acquire in game without skill, it just takes a couple of weeks.
The Kae-Sare Legacy - The Harbinger
<Vindication> <Retribution>

Gralleh Grall'eh Khyar
Gralleh's Guide to Guardian Tanking [UPDATED for 2.0]

TheIrage's Avatar


TheIrage
12.13.2012 , 05:37 PM | #659
Quote: Originally Posted by JovethGonzalez View Post
Hi everyone...

[Quoting Lead Designer Damion Schubert]


It is not our intent to make the Cartel Market the “way to play" the game—we want you to feel that both the Cartel Market and earning gear in game are viable options as far as value goes, neither being far more efficient or effective than the other.


...Thank you for your patience.
Thank you Joveth for your response,

I would just like to ask if you can kindly expand/clarify this paragraph. Perhaps it wasn't your/Damion's intention to imply that the Cartel Market is/will be a viable option for acquiring gear. I think a lot of the general discontent/concern would be precisely that. Making gear even more viable through the cartel market is what many folks are against and coining the term P2W to.

Specifically, you used the word "gear" alone so it can be widely interpreted/miss-interpreted ( crystals, T7 ship upgrades, next?). I think someone has already made the example, but the generality of this paragraph ( and somewhat the method to improve on current T7 via price modifications described on a later paragraph) leave open interpretations that range from Campaign /War Hero level gear potentially being viably purchasable in a near future to even current or next tier content gear? For the sake of preventing people's imaginations from going places, if you could please kindly clarify this for us in a way that includes or excludes core game progression relevant items.

Thank you

Slurmez's Avatar


Slurmez
12.13.2012 , 05:41 PM | #660
Lets look at it this way, no one really gives 2 poops for the space combat in this game, its terrible, a tacked on afterthought a dev threw in after tripping over his old nintendo one day and yet its caused a huge fudgestorm as it gave out the top gear for it via the cash shop.

Most people who are upset dont care about the space junk, its all down to the fact that giving out top gear for real terms cash, regardless of whether it is a small aspect or not, is abhorrant and insulting to those who actually enjoy said aspect. (personally I cant imagine anyone enjoys the on rail shooter but thats just me)

Giving out top gear for cash is wrong, in all "free" to play incarnations, I can think of no other f2p game that just doles out the best stuff for money, the successful ones give a helping hand so you can earn the top stuff. This is troubling to me because its been a terrible way of doing things and built them a ton of bad feeling on the back of a rarely used aspect.

SWTOR had one of the technically smoothest launches I had seen and the worst transition to free to play, its like they really dont know what they are doing and are panicking.