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Pay2Win Space Missions ???

First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

Lostpenguins's Avatar


Lostpenguins
12.13.2012 , 12:06 PM | #551
I don't get some of these people defending the angle that this is okay for these reasons:

1) It's not Pay To Win because you're not actually winning.
If they sold top end PvP gear on the CC Market, it doesn't guarantee you'll win right? In fact, you could end up losing every time you set foot in a WZ, but I'm pretty sure most people would consider this P2W as you're basically buying gear that usually takes in-game effort to obtain (effort by PvP'ing, effort to obtain the crafting mats, effort to buy items off the GTN by obtaining the credits necessary).

2) It's not Pay to Win because you're not directly competing against anyone
If they didn't sell PvP gear, but sold PvE gear, that's not directly competing against someone else. You're grouped with other people in a combined effort to down a scripted AI boss. You can say you're competing against others for "Server 1st" or "World 1st", but all this gear does is help you to down content faster. But that's exactly what the ship upgrades do. They help you complete those new missions faster and more easily which enables you to obtain credits and commendations.

3) It's a mini-game so doesn't impact anything else in the game
Please see by last item in #2. Because you obtain credits, comms that can buy crafting mats via the boxes, and BH comms for doing weekly quests you are now being rewarded with things beyond the scope of the mini-game... and because those new ship upgrades help you do it faster and more easily... it boils down to the fact that you're buying upgrades that help you obtain gear faster and more easily.

4) What does it matter to you?
Because buying gear with real life money circumvents the spirit of the MMO community. Before the CC Market everyone was obtaining their gear by effort in the game. Whether they spent time by raiding, doing Daily and Weekly Missions, doing quests to earn in-game credits to then buy the mats and gear, doing the space missions to earn comms to obtain crafting mats... all of these systems are in place meaning that the person is putting their effort into this game and time in this game.

When someone opens up their wallet, whips out their credit card, and buys those items on the Market they circumvent any in-game effort. They are buying their way to end-game items w/out making any in-game effort. That is at the very heart of Pay To Win.

DAMossimo's Avatar


DAMossimo
12.13.2012 , 12:08 PM | #552
Quote: Originally Posted by JovethGonzalez View Post
Hi everyone,

I've spoken to the design team about the issue of Grade 7 ship upgrades and the cost in game (resources and time) versus the cost on the Cartel Market, since this concern was raised by a number of people on our forums.

Our Lead Designer for the game, Damion Schubert, has this to say:

Unfortunately, there is, in fact, a great disparity between these two costs. We want to apologize for this, as there was a miscommunication internally on how valuable these upgrades were, how challenging they should be to earn, and how fast a player should be able to earn them.

We are currently looking at solutions that cause the least amount of frustration for all players affected, while keeping the integrity of both the Cartel Market and the game intact.

It is not our intent to make the Cartel Market the “way to play" the game—we want you to feel that both the Cartel Market and earning gear in game are viable options as far as value goes, neither being far more efficient or effective than the other.

We truly hope you enjoy the challenge of the new Heroic Space Missions and apologize again for what we hope is a small distraction.

I want to reiterate that we are actively looking at solutions and they will be communicated to you as soon as we have a solid plan.


Thank you for your patience.
This is great news. It all starts with acknowledging there is a problem.

This one is going to be a challenging one to fix but good to know your are working on it.

BJWyler's Avatar


BJWyler
12.13.2012 , 12:08 PM | #553
Quote: Originally Posted by DAMossimo View Post
The term in my mind is "Pay2GearUp", not P2W, although both terms tend to leave a bad taste in everyone's mouth.
I find that a more accurate assessment.

Quote: Originally Posted by Goretzu View Post
They would, this is why P2W once introduced (as it had been) will inevitable expand to destroy the game.

But you're confusing a game making a company money with a game in any way being worth playing, any game that makes money (especially in the short term) doesn't mean it is a health or good game, it just means it is making money for the game company.

Look at WAR dead in a development sense for more than 2 years now, but still making a profit. Does that make it a good game? No.
Good game based on what? Based on your playstyle and preferences. Right now, we are only assuming what a Western Style P2W type of model might do to a game. It hasn't been done yet in full force, so we can only surmise the end results based on our opinion of what is "good" for a game.

Back in 2005, players and the industry said you cannot create a good/AAA MMO without having a subscription based model. ArenaNet proved that theory incorrect. 2-3 years ago the industry and players said that no F2P game would ever be as good or polished as a sub based MMO title. That theory as also proved to be incorrect as witnessed by the most recent release - Planetside 2. We have not yet been able to fully test the theory that a Western Style "P2W" model could not create a good and successful game.

Again, businesses are in the business to make money. The current trend is that Cash Shops make a lot of money for an MMO, hence we see more and more MMOs adding them to their games. If it turns out that by allowing any and all gear that can be had in a game to also be sold in the cash shop is profitable, then you had better believe it will be done at some point. That game will be the lab test to see if it is a long term sustainable model. If it turns out it is, then you can bet on what the next trend in MMO business models in the West is going to be. You may not like it. You may not think it makes for a good game, but in the end that doesn't matter. Just like with WAR if enough people like it and it is good enough for them to make the game profitable, then that is all that is needed.

BJ
Primus and Alpha on the PTS/Swords of the Republic on The Shadowlands
Check out our own Character Page which includes music and Quest Lists

and our YouTube Channel for Gameplay footage and more

Lostpenguins's Avatar


Lostpenguins
12.13.2012 , 12:09 PM | #554
Quote: Originally Posted by JovethGonzalez View Post
the integrity of both the Cartel Market and the game intact.
You cheapened the integrity of the market once you started putting top tier gear (of any kind) for sale on the Cartel Market.

That is the fundamental problem here. If you guys want to start selling more top-tier gear on the Market... and I don't care what the cost is... if you want to sell ANY top-tier gear on the Market on a go-forward basis, just come out and say it so that I can unsub because that isn't the MMO I signed up for.

BJWyler's Avatar


BJWyler
12.13.2012 , 12:10 PM | #555
Delete - too many windows open ... arrrgghh.
Primus and Alpha on the PTS/Swords of the Republic on The Shadowlands
Check out our own Character Page which includes music and Quest Lists

and our YouTube Channel for Gameplay footage and more

BJWyler's Avatar


BJWyler
12.13.2012 , 12:11 PM | #556
Quote: Originally Posted by JovethGonzalez View Post
Hi everyone,

I've spoken to the design team about the issue of Grade 7 ship upgrades and the cost in game (resources and time) versus the cost on the Cartel Market, since this concern was raised by a number of people on our forums.

Our Lead Designer for the game, Damion Schubert, has this to say:

Unfortunately, there is, in fact, a great disparity between these two costs. We want to apologize for this, as there was a miscommunication internally on how valuable these upgrades were, how challenging they should be to earn, and how fast a player should be able to earn them.

We are currently looking at solutions that cause the least amount of frustration for all players affected, while keeping the integrity of both the Cartel Market and the game intact.

It is not our intent to make the Cartel Market the “way to play" the game—we want you to feel that both the Cartel Market and earning gear in game are viable options as far as value goes, neither being far more efficient or effective than the other.

We truly hope you enjoy the challenge of the new Heroic Space Missions and apologize again for what we hope is a small distraction.

I want to reiterate that we are actively looking at solutions and they will be communicated to you as soon as we have a solid plan.


Thank you for your patience.
And there you go, people!! Now let's get together as we tried to do several pages ago and help BW find a good median and common ground to satisfy the needs of players in both camps.

BJ
Primus and Alpha on the PTS/Swords of the Republic on The Shadowlands
Check out our own Character Page which includes music and Quest Lists

and our YouTube Channel for Gameplay footage and more

dpwms's Avatar


dpwms
12.13.2012 , 12:11 PM | #557
I love this thread!

But...

It is clear from what has been said that anyone who subscribes to the game, even if they don't buy anything from the cartel shop, is paying to win. All of the subscriber benefits are unnecessary to get to level 50, therefore they are all convenience items to circumvent various challenges of the "real" game (the F2P game) such as limited hotbars, not being able to equip artifact level gear (a terrible crutch for those who can't play the game anyway), etc.

So, everyone who is bemoaning pay to win but is a subscriber is a hypocrit.

Lostpenguins's Avatar


Lostpenguins
12.13.2012 , 12:14 PM | #558
Quote: Originally Posted by dpwms View Post
I love this thread!

But...

It is clear from what has been said that anyone who subscribes to the game, even if they don't buy anything from the cartel shop, is paying to win. All of the subscriber benefits are unnecessary to get to level 50, therefore they are all convenience items to circumvent various challenges of the "real" game (the F2P game) such as limited hotbars, not being able to equip artifact level gear (a terrible crutch for those who can't play the game anyway), etc.

So, everyone who is bemoaning free to play but is a subscriber is a hypocrit.
Wrong. The game started off as a subscriber. You cannot retcon what the "real" game is now that they offered a more limited game in the version of F2P.

That is so bad. That's like saying we were getting a discount on gas back in the 90's because it was $1/gallon, but now we're paying $4/gallon so you're retconning and saying the "real" price is $4/gallon.

Try again.

DAMossimo's Avatar


DAMossimo
12.13.2012 , 12:20 PM | #559
IMO, the **** is already out of the bull now, so the Cartel Packs for the ship parts can't really be changed without causing a major riot by those who bought them already.

Perhaps, as I saw someone else suggest, remove the Molecular Stablizer requirement from the schematics? That would put the reasonable selling price in line with what we see the straw purchases going for on the GTN currently. There is too much endgame stuff that uses the Molecular Stablizers already; it's becoming it's own currency.

Another option would be to increase the fleet comm rewards from the last 3 (Ilum Sector) space missions so that it takes a shorter time to buy one of the new upgrades?

Just a couple of spit-balled ideas...

Mallorik's Avatar


Mallorik
12.13.2012 , 12:21 PM | #560
Quote: Originally Posted by BJWyler View Post
Good game based on what? Based on your playstyle and preferences. Right now, we are only assuming what a Western Style P2W type of model might do to a game. It hasn't been done yet in full force, so we can only surmise the end results based on our opinion of what is "good" for a game.

Back in 2005, players and the industry said you cannot create a good/AAA MMO without having a subscription based model. ArenaNet proved that theory incorrect. 2-3 years ago the industry and players said that no F2P game would ever be as good or polished as a sub based MMO title. That theory as also proved to be incorrect as witnessed by the most recent release - Planetside 2. We have not yet been able to fully test the theory that a Western Style "P2W" model could not create a good and successful game.

Again, businesses are in the business to make money. The current trend is that Cash Shops make a lot of money for an MMO, hence we see more and more MMOs adding them to their games. If it turns out that by allowing any and all gear that can be had in a game to also be sold in the cash shop is profitable, then you had better believe it will be done at some point. That game will be the lab test to see if it is a long term sustainable model. It it turns out it is, then you can bet on what the next trend in MMO business models in the West is going to be. You may not like it. You may not think it makes for a good game, but in the end that doesn't matter. Just like with WAR if enough people like it and it is good enough for them to make the game profitable, then that is all that is needed.

BJ
There have been several "f2p" games in the west that went "p2w" and crashed really really hard. I think Allods was one of them (its hard to remember the names of games you played for 25 minutes and uninstalled after you saw it was p2w) The big one was Runes of magic, it was an awsome game and packed full of people in beta, then it went live and brought in all the p2w features.

Players are like 2 year olds, they all know what they want but if you give them what they want they will get bored and wander off, being able to buy all the top teir space gear and top teir raid gear whether its from the cartel or the gtn is just a rediculously stupid idea for an mmo, and people who advocate it and do it will get bored and be leaving the game right after all the people who worked for their gear leave it.