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Pay2Win Space Missions ???

First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

Clevelandboy's Avatar


Clevelandboy
12.12.2012 , 07:19 PM | #481
Quote: Originally Posted by rnmedic View Post
Looks like there trying out the P2W model with the space missions. END game
So would it be P2W if crafters made the parts and sold them for insane amount of credits? Because really what is going on is people are buying the parts then selling them on the GTN for credits. So in the end it comes out to be the same thing as if someone crafted the parts because I am willing to bet less than 10% of the players in this game even do space missions.

BJWyler's Avatar


BJWyler
12.12.2012 , 08:18 PM | #482
Quote: Originally Posted by iamthehoyden View Post
Perhaps I read too much into your questions but they seemed on the verge of being insulting to anyone who has a competitive nature. Games and competition go hand-in-hand. I won't apologize for grinning when I get a really good piece of gear that few other players have when I got it through hard work. To then turn around and see the same piece of gear on someone whose entire skillset is swiping a credit card degrades the entire experience for me.

Aside from the color crystals, I had little problem with what they offerred in the 1.5 CM. But to offer the top-end parts is too far.
Which is why I am asking the questions I am. We need to determine the whys and wherefores and by doing so, we can determine what kind of solutions would work to relieve the complaints we have with the CM while still offering the conveniences and perks that other people are willing to spend money on which in turn helps to keep the game up and running.
So let me ask this - you worked hard (and thereby spent your available time) in game to earn that gear. The other person worked hard in real life (and thereby spent their available time) to earn the money to buy the gear. Why is one way better than the other? If you both worked hard, shouldn't you both be able to acquire the item via the means the hard work produced?
Why would offering top end gear be going to far? All gear is gated based on character level, so only max level characters would be able to use said gear. If one person has enough time to earn it in game through hard work, but another person does not (because of hard work), but can earn it because of said work, shouldn't they be to use the means they have available to get the gear (money), just as you did (time)?

To rehash my feelings from the previous post, and keeping in the spirit of information gathering, let me answer first:
If they were to offer the Tier 7 ship parts in one complete package for $10 or $15 on the CM and also offer it from a Vendor in game for 500,000 credits, would it still be a problem?
No. When I play games, I want to be able to play them in a manner I find most enjoyable, and the ones that do often allow me options on how to play when I feel like playing at any particular time. Sometimes I just want to faceroll mobs for some quick stress relief. Sometimes I want to feel that my skills and strategies are put to the test. Sometimes I just want to re-run a piece of content over and over again because I really happen to like it and am in the mood for more of it that night. The same goes for acquiring items. By having it available in the store, on a Vendor or GTN, or via a mission reward or drop, I can then pick the way I want to get that item at that particular time and continue to play the parts of the game I enjoy most, and skip over the ones that I do not enjoy.

Why should there be a need to "work" in a game - we work in real life, shouldn't we have more options available in a game to avoid "working" on a piece of content if we so choose?
This is a tricky one to answer, because quite frankly we shouldn’t be working in a game. Games should be made for entertainment and fun. While some people may consider their real life jobs fun, I think the term “work” kind of precludes that essential element. The key here is to make the content playable in such a way in that it doesn’t feel like work, even if what we are doing may be considered “work” of a sort. Generally, the term applies to grinding content in game, so the key is to either make the grind voluntary (as Guild Wars attempted to do) by not making it essential to completing content in the game (cosmetic grind). Unfortunately, for games like SWTOR, which are gear based games, the grind becomes an essential part of obtaining the gear (treadmill grind). The only way to avoid making it feel like work in this type of game is to make the content fun and compelling enough to make having to repeat it more than once not a problem, or bypass it altogether by having the gear available by another means in addition to the playable content.

End Part One (this was a long post)
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BJWyler's Avatar


BJWyler
12.12.2012 , 08:23 PM | #483
If you do indeed have that choice, and you enjoy playing the game and playing the Operations, why then would the fact that the armor appears in the cash shop affect your feeling of accomplishment in that you completed the content and reaped the reward in the manner that you enjoyed the most?
For me it would not. I am a competitive person, but I also play games primarily as a means of stress relief and for entertainment. As I mention above a part of that entertainment comes from being able to play the way I want at that particular time. As such I often make my own goals to try to achieve outside of what the game gives me. I play for my own pride and sense of accomplishment. Regardless of how other people may play the game or obtain items, it did not change the way I did it, it did not change the goals I set out for myself, and it did not change the fact that I was able to do what I wanted in the way I wanted to do it.


Shouldn’t you be proud of your accomplishment regardless because you succeeded in performing it on your own terms?
Yes I am, for the reasons I just mentioned. No one can take my accomplishments away from me. If I wanted to spend hours hiking to the top of a peak in the Rocky Mountains I can do it. If someone decides to fly a Helicopter to the top of that same peak changes nothing about my sense of accomplishment by doing it my way.

If it is related to competition and Epeen, who then are you trying to impress?
First and foremost I try to impress and compete against myself. Again, being the competitive person that I am, no one else will be as critical of my abilities as I am, therefore I will always push myself to do better (by setting my own goals). In terms of competition, it depends on who I am competing against. To put it in real world terms, when I was participating in competitive sports I was always trying to win, and even when I did thought back on how I could do things even better next time. Trying to impress my competitors or audience never really came into my mind because my goal was not to impress, but to succeed.

If it the random stranger, again, why does what they think so important?
For me, what they think doesn’t matter, for the reasons stated above. The random stranger has no bearing or effect on my life either in the Real World or in game, so I don’t really care about them. As such their opinion of me means absolutely nothing, therefore I never try to impress them.

If it be the competition between like-minded individuals and groups, would it not then be logical to assume that you all would communicate your accomplishments with each other and thus be able to differentiate between those who performed the accomplishments and those who bought the end rewards?
That’s what I have always done in real life and continue to do in games. I always have friendly competitions. We all know each other, we goad each other. We rib each other for our mistakes and praise each other for our successes. This is a group of people that either have a bearing on my life in the real world or in game, therefore we know who accomplished what and give appropriate praise. The fact that others may have did things differently really has no bearing on what we do because what we do is for us and our enjoyment.

BJ
Primus and Alpha on the PTS/Swords of the Republic on The Shadowlands
Check out our own Character Page which includes music and Quest Lists

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Guinnessmonkey's Avatar


Guinnessmonkey
12.12.2012 , 08:37 PM | #484
Quote: Originally Posted by rnmedic View Post
Looks like there trying out the P2W model with the space missions. END game
Run! The sky is falling! They gave the option to spend money so you can try the new missions for the minigame that most people don't even play! SWTOR is doooooooomed!

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iamthehoyden's Avatar


iamthehoyden
12.12.2012 , 08:37 PM | #485
Quote: Originally Posted by BJWyler View Post
For me it would not. I am a competitive person, but I also play games primarily as a means of stress relief and for entertainment. As I mention above a part of that entertainment comes from being able to play the way I want at that particular time. As such I often make my own goals to try to achieve outside of what the game gives me. I play for my own pride and sense of accomplishment. Regardless of how other people may play the game or obtain items, it did not change the way I did it, it did not change the goals I set out for myself, and it did not change the fact that I was able to do what I wanted in the way I wanted to do it.
To be honest, you sound more individually achievement-oriented than competitive. And that's fine. That's a completely legitimate way to play the game. And as such, I see why this doesn't bother you. But be aware that not everyone competes only against themselves. Competing against others, whether in terms of wins or gear-acquistion, is a legitimate way to play the game.

There are lots of things I like about this game. I like the social aspect. I like exploring. I like setting goals for myself and reaching them. And I also like comparing what I can do against other players. Sometimes I come up short, sometimes I don't, but getting better in comparison is part of what I like about playing the game. Being able to buy your way to the top cheapens the entire experience, in my opinion.
aren't you a little short for a stormtrooper?
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Fan Fiction: My Name is Solomon Crae The Man in the Box

Clevelandboy's Avatar


Clevelandboy
12.12.2012 , 08:41 PM | #486
Quote: Originally Posted by Guinnessmonkey View Post
Run! The sky is falling! They gave the option to spend money so you can try the new missions for the minigame that most people don't even play! SWTOR is doooooooomed!
The funny thing with the P2W group is once you point out

1. less than 10% of the players do space
2. it is faster to get BH coms from Daily GF weekly quest
3.You can get the space parts from a long grind

They seem to vanish and say nothing else about why or how this is P2W.Funny thing is my ship was loaded out with crafted parts. So what is the difference other than the crafter was left out of this transaction?

BJWyler's Avatar


BJWyler
12.12.2012 , 08:45 PM | #487
Quote: Originally Posted by iamthehoyden View Post
To be honest, you sound more individually achievement-oriented than competitive. And that's fine. That's a completely legitimate way to play the game. And as such, I see why this doesn't bother you. But be aware that not everyone competes only against themselves. Competing against others, whether in terms of wins or gear-acquistion, is a legitimate way to play the game.

There are lots of things I like about this game. I like the social aspect. I like exploring. I like setting goals for myself and reaching them. And I also like comparing what I can do against other players. Sometimes I come up short, sometimes I don't, but getting better in comparison is part of what I like about playing the game. Being able to buy your way to the top cheapens the entire experience, in my opinion.
But when someone buys their way to the top, they are in fact not getting better. By virtue of spending time and effort in game, learning to play and learning the mechanics they will become better skilled. Those who do not spend such time and effort will not be better skilled, therefore your accomplishments and skills cannot be cheapened because you still end up being the better player.

Is my way of playing better than your way? Is your way of playing better than my way? The answer is no to both - so the question becomes, where is the middle ground. What things can be done that allows you to play the way you want without loosing a sense of accomplishment and allow me to play the way I want by being able to customize the looks of my toons via real money and allow me time to play the aspects of the game I enjoy most?

BJ
Primus and Alpha on the PTS/Swords of the Republic on The Shadowlands
Check out our own Character Page which includes music and Quest Lists

and our YouTube Channel for Gameplay footage and more

Guinnessmonkey's Avatar


Guinnessmonkey
12.12.2012 , 08:49 PM | #488
Quote: Originally Posted by Clevelandboy View Post
The funny thing with the P2W group is once you point out

1. less than 10% of the players do space
2. it is faster to get BH coms from Daily GF weekly quest
3.You can get the space parts from a long grind

They seem to vanish and say nothing else about why or how this is P2W.Funny thing is my ship was loaded out with crafted parts. So what is the difference other than the crafter was left out of this transaction?
In my experience, they usually just ignore your post or just say something about how you don't understand because you're not a hardcore player like they are. 'Cause we really should make it so the game is only fun for people who can spend 12+ hours a day grinding.

Heck, maybe that's the root of the issue: The old "grind to get anything" method was great for the unemployed. Asking them to throw an extra $10 at a game that they've been playing for thousands of hours is distinctly unfair, I guess, since they DO have plenty of time, but they DON'T have $10.

P2W whiners: Just think of the space missions as DLC that they asked you to pay a couple dollars for, but also gave you the option to grind to get it for free. You apparently like grinding, so get to it. Me, I hate grinding; I'm really not sure why wanting to have a good story in a multiplayer environment supposedly means that I also want to do the Black Hole missions or the late-game space missions 2000 times. I'd MUCH rather spend that time leveling alts, thanks.

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notalkjustrock's Avatar


notalkjustrock
12.12.2012 , 08:51 PM | #489
Quote: Originally Posted by Guinnessmonkey View Post
P2W whiners: Just think of the space missions as DLC that they asked you to pay a couple dollars for,
http://www.swtor.com/free/features

If it's DLC, it's DLC I already paid for.

Guinnessmonkey's Avatar


Guinnessmonkey
12.12.2012 , 08:53 PM | #490
Quote: Originally Posted by notalkjustrock View Post
http://www.swtor.com/free/features

If it's DLC, it's DLC I already paid for.
Well, feel free to play the space missions then. You can totally try them out without the gear. If you absolutely refuse to buy 'em (don't you have coins from subscribing?), grind away. Be my guest.

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