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Pay2Win Space Missions ???

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Nemmar's Avatar

12.11.2012 , 02:31 PM | #241
Quote: Originally Posted by Pulpp View Post
Haha...I love reading the cheerleaders desperately pretending this is not the start of P2W (well, actually the UI lock was the start of p2w, but whatever). Funny stuff. What's actually more amusing is that this same thread has been present in EVERY f2p MMO and all those "slippery slope" arguments end up true. SWTOR is not unique, it's simply the reality of the genre. And EA is a cheesier company than most, so if you think they won't go full board P2W...then wow, are you ever delusional. Look up EAsy's f2p shooters and see what they have done there.

And to clear up some silly arguments:
ANY item that can be purchased to give the player an advantage for in-game content is a P2W item. It does not matter if you can get it via other means. Perhaps the "item" drops for free from a raid (.001% chance), or you can grind for it or maybe even buy it with credits...NONE of that makes a difference to what it actually is, that's only how many artificial barriers the developer added for everyone else (the higher the barriers, the more valuable the P2W item becomes).

Some people are saying that it's not p2w because "space combat is a silly single player thing". Let's put aside the obvious counter that there are actual gear rewards coming from the combat... What a load of bunk. This is an aspect of the actual game (albeit pathetic and lazy). It's a challenge and that challenge can be significantly lessened with a purchase. And you know, most players in SWTOR never group up. Are you also trying to make the argument that because they don't interact with others, any items they buy cannot be p2w?! Lol.

When p2w items grant an advantage over other players, that just makes them more valuable/annoying. That's not the standard for defining p2w though. But as I mentioned before, check out EA's other f2p games (like the EAsy stuff) an advantage for money is there biggest seller (and it hurts the game the most). Oh sure, you can play a free minigame like the CLAW for a random chance to even the odds, but that doesn't make it less p2w.

Grab your ankles folks, EA is at the helm and content is now being developed with the store in mind, not the subscribers
The problem is, you thinking that if this is P2W, why didnt you point that out when the shop first came out? You can buy all sorts of items and sell them for credits in-game and use those to buy better gear. Why didnt you say it was P2W then? What is different about these ship parts? They do not offer you a bigger advantage than those intermediate gear sets do.

This makes me think you are just trying to hate. Your analysis is convenient and not accurate.

notalkjustrock's Avatar

12.11.2012 , 02:32 PM | #242
Quote: Originally Posted by dpwms View Post
You aren't. Three avenues to acquire the items:

1) Fast, Cartel Market
2) Moderate, buy for creds on GTN
3) Slow, grind the comms

I can't see any explanation for this complaining beyond jealousy of people who have the means to choose option 1.
Except the grind has clearly been taken up a notch. The comm cost of the level 7 stuff in PTS was like 200 fleet comms per upgrade. I do not believe the comm cost of the upgrades would be 500 comms butfor the cash shop.

They are making grinds longer than they would be butfor the cash shop. That is the problem.

BJWyler's Avatar

12.11.2012 , 02:34 PM | #243
Quote: Originally Posted by Lostpenguins View Post
So you're saying the fact that it requires some work that it's not P2W? Are you arguing that paying money to reduce the effort to obtain said gear isn't P2W?

If that's the case, what if the Cartel Market gave you a buff that increased all stats by 100 for 4 hours. So raiders start using it in operations so they can complete the content faster and more easily.

Are they still working to get the new PvE gear? Yes. Are they paying cash to get an advantage that will reduce the effort at which they have to make it acquire the new PvE gear? Yes.

That is P2W. It's creating an advantage in gameplay mechanics that goes beyond cosmetics.

The fact that someone can sell the packs on the GTN doesn't change the fact that it starts with buying from the Cartel Market. The Cartel Market should never sell things that give an advantage in gameplay beyond cosmetics.
Quote: Originally Posted by Goretzu View Post
To get them they can P2W to avoid the upgrade grind, thereby circumventing much of the process through paying cash - this is textbook P2W. I don't understand how you can't seem to grasp this.
Again with the textbook, but no link to the official, textbook definitions, only your interpretations of what you think P2W should mean. The fact of the matter is that it is an accepted means of convenience in the West that allows players to reduce the amount of grind they have to perform in a game to get to play the parts they really enjoy playing (after all, that was the original intent of GW2 in their manifesto wasn't it? Reducing grind, yet here we have players demanding that grind be the end all of MMOs).

The fact of the matter is that when you get down to basics, skill ideally trumps all. To become skilled at something, you must put time and effort into it. Those who choose the shortcut that avoids putting time and effort into something can not become as skilled and experienced as someone who did (natural talent notwithstanding). Therefore, in examples that we have here, where there is more than one method of acquisition, the players who put in the time and effort will eventually rise to the top, and those that buy, while may look the same will not be able to "win" against this truly skilled group.

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TheIrage's Avatar

12.11.2012 , 02:34 PM | #244
Quote: Originally Posted by cycao View Post
Not sure how the only real solo aspect of this game can be classified as a pay to win but eh...I have not done a space mission in forever and don't see that changing.
I am with you on the part of not doing the space missions because, well, in my case i just think they are boring. But I would argue that the P2W doesn't exclude the solo aspect.

Pick any solo game you have found at all remotely challenging in the past. Short of cheating your way out of it (cheat codes) or googling for strats, you had to keep trying and/or progressing until you beat the game through either skill, learning, gearing, patience or all of the above. Now say all the sadden the game developer sells the gear needed for you to significantly overcome that challenge. Isn't that P2W? You are paying for a game you already payed in order to win ?

Fortunefive's Avatar

12.11.2012 , 02:34 PM | #245
This pisses me off to no extent. after spending the last 16 days doing every F*cking boring @ss space mission to see that you can now just buy everything you need. What a freaking joke...

Lostpenguins's Avatar

12.11.2012 , 02:38 PM | #246
Quote: Originally Posted by PandaKeeper View Post
And therein lays the problem in both the game and the board. Exact same thing available in game with some work behind it, but some shortcuts available for money (at your own expense/choice). So lets drive any options for anyone else into the ground because they choose that option instead of working towards it.

If you have a problem with there being a paid shortcut, take it up with the player. Some people have pretty legitimate reasons for buying them as well, such as limited time in game due to work etc. If the cash shop dissapeared tomorrow no one would be complaining. Your game play would not change at all, if that were the case.
This is what people like me were arguing against... that this game shouldn't cater to people who can throw more and more money at the game. That is exactly Pay 2 Win. You're saying that someone who can't put the time into the game deserves things in this game just because they have bigger wallets? That makes no sense. That is not fair and balanced treatment. If you think anyone money should compensate for time... I'm sorry, but that's not fair in a game. Sure, that's a harsh reality of life that if you have the cash, you can reduce your workload, but that's not what this game should be founded on.

Of course, I'm perfectly okay with this concept in this game if BW wants to come out and admit it. I'm more than willing to unsubscribe because that's not the type of game I want to play in.

dpwms's Avatar

12.11.2012 , 02:39 PM | #247
Quote: Originally Posted by Nemmar View Post
You are completely overstating things. The rewards you get from the space mini-game are not worth anything without effort by aquiring them, leveling up crafting, getting recipes and getting other needed mats. There is no P2W here, you're just beeing dense.
Its jealousy and epeen, 100%. Earning the comms from the space missions helps people gear up for HMs and Ops. Its to everyone's benefit that more people equip endgame gear, but pettiness blinds people.

Goretzu's Avatar

12.11.2012 , 02:40 PM | #248
Quote: Originally Posted by BJWyler View Post
Again with the textbook, but no link to the official, textbook definitions, only your interpretations of what you think P2W should mean.
Unfortunately the UN takes a looooooong time, they said they'd have an offical draft P2W legislation of agreement for discussion by 2015.

Until then you'll just have to live with P2W being paying to circumvent gameplay.
Real Star Wars space combat please, not Star Wars Fox! Maybe some PvP and flight too?
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SickTag's Avatar

12.11.2012 , 02:40 PM | #249

dpwms's Avatar

12.11.2012 , 02:41 PM | #250
Quote: Originally Posted by Lostpenguins View Post
You're saying that someone who can't put the time into the game deserves things in this game just because they have bigger wallets? That makes no sense.
Heh. People with bigger wallets can buy more. Yeah that makes no sense whatsoever. No parallel to reality there.