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Premades; Why we do it

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Premades; Why we do it

criminalheretic's Avatar


criminalheretic
12.08.2012 , 01:27 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Raynezazki View Post
No no they don't. You shouldn't be punished for leaving a curb stomp battle. Especially since there's a good chance you won't even get three medals and end up wasting your time for no comms.
While there is no excuse to not get the one medal (not three anymore) you need to get comms, I agree that people should not be punished for leaving a 'curb-stomp battle'. Better that, than petitioning Bioware to take away good PvPer's ability to play together.

People need to exercise their right to quit more often.

Going against a premade? Quit.
Someone on your team quits? Quit.
Going against 4 smashmonkeys? Quit.
Going against a team of Bubblestuns? Quit. (This I actually do sometimes)

Nothing communicates your unwillingness to compete in what you feel is a lopsided match, than seeing the message "this warzone will be aborted in 30 seconds unless more players join".

You don't want to get farmed by a premade? Then don't stick around to be farmed by a premade. But don't ask Bioware to make sure people can't play together.

EVERYONE has 3 options. Group with 1-3 people in regular. Group with 7 people and do ranked. Solo queue in regular.

Don't be the guy voting to take away other people's choices, just because you aren't very good at PvP or making friends, or both.
What we don't understand, we can make mean anything.
Hyperspace Cannon -> Drooga's -> The Harbinger

criminalheretic's Avatar


criminalheretic
12.08.2012 , 01:33 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Helig View Post
In 95% cases, it *is* a losing warzone. An alternative solution is rather well-known - a separate solo queue, which oh-so-many people (whether they zealously believe that MMO is a teamplay game, and solo players must be punished and forcefully hammered into premades; or just like to steamroll pugs, among others) furiously rage against.
It's curious that you use words like "force" and "hammered" when it's the people who propose a separate queue 'solution', who are limiting the options of others, rather than taking advantage themselves, of options that have always been available.
What we don't understand, we can make mean anything.
Hyperspace Cannon -> Drooga's -> The Harbinger

Uggen's Avatar


Uggen
12.08.2012 , 01:38 PM | #23
You do realise people do premades because it's smart for the persons doing it? The game allows you to do it. Don't get mad at the players for doing premades. It's like hating on every smasher in the game for taking advantage and playing a good spec.
Uggen-Commando
Tomb of Freedon Nadd.

Helig's Avatar


Helig
12.08.2012 , 01:44 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by criminalheretic View Post
It's curious that you use words like "force" and "hammered" when it's the people who propose a separate queue 'solution', who are limiting the options of others, rather than taking advantage themselves, of options that have always been available.
How exactly does it limit options? Do elaborate. I run with a premade group. When I want competitive group play, I get together with them and hit "queue rated". If I want to chill and test builds and alts, I hit "queue solo".

It's about rules of engagement. When I queue for rated matches, I know precisely what to expect. We get full premade on full premade, geared and augmented (the majority of them anyway). Solo queues have much looser "rules of engagement". Narrowing them down is not "limiting options". It's "separating options".
"I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!" - Pinkamena Diane Pie

criminalheretic's Avatar


criminalheretic
12.08.2012 , 02:29 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Helig View Post
How exactly does it limit options? Do elaborate. I run with a premade group. When I want competitive group play, I get together with them and hit "queue rated". If I want to chill and test builds and alts, I hit "queue solo".

It's about rules of engagement. When I queue for rated matches, I know precisely what to expect. We get full premade on full premade, geared and augmented (the majority of them anyway). Solo queues have much looser "rules of engagement". Narrowing them down is not "limiting options". It's "separating options".
Today, 12/08/2012. I can: (and so can you)

Queue for regs with 1-3 of my guildies/friends.
Queue for regs by myself.
Queue for rated with 7 of my guildies/friends.

If you get your way and premades can't queue for regs, then my options become:

Queue for regs by myself.
Queue for rated with 7 of my guildies/friends.

2 < 3 = Limiting options.
What we don't understand, we can make mean anything.
Hyperspace Cannon -> Drooga's -> The Harbinger

Helig's Avatar


Helig
12.08.2012 , 03:34 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by criminalheretic View Post
Today, 12/08/2012. I can: (and so can you)

Queue for regs with 1-3 of my guildies/friends.
Queue for regs by myself.
Queue for rated with 7 of my guildies/friends.

If you get your way and premades can't queue for regs, then my options become:

Queue for regs by myself.
Queue for rated with 7 of my guildies/friends.

2 < 3 = Limiting options.
I definitely can.

But a casual player who can't afford scheduled playtimes (unless he's in a community with a large pool of eligible 50 PvPers) can:
Pray to the gods of RNG that he's placed in a fair fight and that his limited playtime is not wasted getting farmed.

The end. "Pug premades" don't qualify, because they are, essentially, pugs.

I understand that 2-4 people groups may be your "comfort zone". But you must realize that there are a lot of players whose "comfort zone" is solo queue and chat coordination with random players.
You can say "Well, they can suck it up, get a guild that runs warzones and get a group and coordinate". I'd reply with "why don't *you* do the same? You have a guild and/or friends willing to play with you? Well, get *MORE* friends."

Naturally, I'd be wrong saying that. And so would you be demanding players to abandon/get forced out of a perfectly valid MMO playstyle.

Me and my guild (large, active community) somehow managed to play PvP before group queues were even present. We'd just sign up in a bunch (like 12 to 20), remaining in one TS channel, then go to TS channels corresponding instances we were assigned to.

"But Helig!", you'd say - "You're just proving how silly the solo queue is because of how easily it can be bypassed!"

While this is certainly true, the fact that premade-on-pug pressure would be significantly lessened is rather obvious. This is definitely a good thing for people who want to get into PvP without getting what amounts to prison-grade lovemaking of MMOs.
"I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!" - Pinkamena Diane Pie

Raynezazki's Avatar


Raynezazki
12.08.2012 , 03:39 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by criminalheretic View Post
While there is no excuse to not get the one medal (not three anymore) you need to get comms, I agree that people should not be punished for leaving a 'curb-stomp battle'. Better that, than petitioning Bioware to take away good PvPer's ability to play together.

People need to exercise their right to quit more often.

Going against a premade? Quit.
Someone on your team quits? Quit.
Going against 4 smashmonkeys? Quit.
Going against a team of Bubblestuns? Quit. (This I actually do sometimes)

Nothing communicates your unwillingness to compete in what you feel is a lopsided match, than seeing the message "this warzone will be aborted in 30 seconds unless more players join".

You don't want to get farmed by a premade? Then don't stick around to be farmed by a premade. But don't ask Bioware to make sure people can't play together.

EVERYONE has 3 options. Group with 1-3 people in regular. Group with 7 people and do ranked. Solo queue in regular.

Don't be the guy voting to take away other people's choices, just because you aren't very good at PvP or making friends, or both.
And that's exactly what I do.
(well save 2. I don't quit just cause someone else does. Most of the time I cheer because said whiner was holding everyone else back )
But when people cry that I should be punished for leaving a match I feel is not fun is when I feel hey if I'm gonna get punished separate the queues.

Sleprock's Avatar


Sleprock
12.08.2012 , 04:01 PM | #28
More debuff arguments lol.
Some people have real lives and sometimes have to go regardless of whats going on.

Zhaker's Avatar


Zhaker
12.08.2012 , 04:32 PM | #29
I'll tell you why I premade whenever I can.

Its simple, but you people whining about premades ARE the SOLE reason why we premade.

Some PuGs are terrible.

When I mean terrible, they dont know how to DPS, they dont do objectives, they clown around in it and whine about how OP the other faction is.

=================================================

So here are the suggestions brought out:

- Premade fight premade only: Works if both sides want to fight and they do. But the problem is when one premade that has to go they're forced to PuG 5 people, 1 extra PuG makes it from fun to butt hurt experience. The other problem is the ABUSERS willing to abuse this system any way they can so that theyr'e always together.

Sure you can try to force queue solo as a means to have random groups each time but you cant guarantee this always and this can lead to queue delays. When a single premade is not getting queues pop up often they will abuse this just so they can play, regardless of win and lose.

- Match making system: This can work, but there needs a hidden rating system to do this, so the matchmaking system works, also needs to consider premades because each individual will have a different rating system than the other. The suggestion was gear, which can easily be abused. Valor is stupid because alts can bring a level 50 guy in valor 20 with war hero gear.

- Queue Solo Only: This is a joke, so now we're forced to NOT play together as a team, this is what the terribads who cant find a group to premade want. If you say otherwise dont even reply to this cause your just wasting space.

================================================== =======

The REAL way this is going to work really is which you can argue all day long till the cows come home:

Find like minded people and join them as a premade: You have a higher chance of winning, but doesnt guarantee winning, but at least you know at least 3 others arent idiots and know what they're doing so you tend to trust them and be able to contribute to PvP in a concentrated effort.

But the REAL issue why puggers are arguing over premaders is simply. They get roflstomped.

As someone suggested if you had 7 good pugs fighting a ****** premade, the results are surprisingly the same.

So I leave all you whiners a real question:

What do you want out of PvP?
What is "fair" to you?
Why is winning all that important to you?

EDIT: Oh and for about being roflstomped, if I do get it then I just ride the wave and get the comms, its quick, and I can get to another WZ quickly, premades sometimes have a slower time to get queues than PuG as well. Just saying.

criminalheretic's Avatar


criminalheretic
12.08.2012 , 04:42 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Helig View Post
I definitely can.

But a casual player who can't afford scheduled playtimes (unless he's in a community with a large pool of eligible 50 PvPers) can:
Pray to the gods of RNG that he's placed in a fair fight and that his limited playtime is not wasted getting farmed.

The end. "Pug premades" don't qualify, because they are, essentially, pugs.

I understand that 2-4 people groups may be your "comfort zone". But you must realize that there are a lot of players whose "comfort zone" is solo queue and chat coordination with random players.
You can say "Well, they can suck it up, get a guild that runs warzones and get a group and coordinate". I'd reply with "why don't *you* do the same? You have a guild and/or friends willing to play with you? Well, get *MORE* friends."

Naturally, I'd be wrong saying that. And so would you be demanding players to abandon/get forced out of a perfectly valid MMO playstyle.

Me and my guild (large, active community) somehow managed to play PvP before group queues were even present. We'd just sign up in a bunch (like 12 to 20), remaining in one TS channel, then go to TS channels corresponding instances we were assigned to.

"But Helig!", you'd say - "You're just proving how silly the solo queue is because of how easily it can be bypassed!"

While this is certainly true, the fact that premade-on-pug pressure would be significantly lessened is rather obvious. This is definitely a good thing for people who want to get into PvP without getting what amounts to prison-grade lovemaking of MMOs.
No. 2-4 players is not my "comfort zone". This is like arguing politics. Republicans think everyone that is rich earned every penny, and everyone that is poor, is lazy. Democrats think every rich person had a Harvard education paid for by mommy and daddy, and that every poor person is a hard worker who hasn't had as many opportunities.

Regardless of how "easy" it is for me to draw from my unlimited pool of elite pvpers...

Regardless of how "hard" it is for someone else to find 3 competent individuals to queue up with...

The facts are these.

I joined a guild. We group up. We win more often than not.

You have not joined a guild (or at least not a PvP guild). You do not group up. Apparently you lose more often than not.

I have taken steps to help myself win more often.

You have not taken steps to help yourself win more often. You are asking Bioware to take those steps for you, by undoing the steps I have taken.

If your comfort zone does not include taking steps to win, then you have to accept that your comfort zone, is losing.
What we don't understand, we can make mean anything.
Hyperspace Cannon -> Drooga's -> The Harbinger