so whats your guys opinions for a GOOD operative DPS in RWZ. worthless or a good choice?

A good shadow/assassin will always be preferred is the problem. No matter how good you are a Concealment Op, a hybrid, decep/infil, or bal/mad build will always be taken over you.

Hell, I've seen some of the better scrapers or conceal Ops on my server reroll a shadow/sin just because of it. I've even seen some weak scrappers who die often are now playing shadows and prospering.

A good shadow/assassin will always be preferred is the problem. No matter how good you are a Concealment Op, a hybrid, decep/infil, or bal/mad build will always be taken over you.

 

Hell, I've seen some of the better scrapers or conceal Ops on my server reroll a shadow/sin just because of it. I've even seen some weak scrappers who die often are now playing shadows and prospering.

Hah. All my assassin friends/guildmates are former-concealment operatives.

Hah. All my assassin friends/guildmates are former-concealment operatives.

awesome quote.

As the best concealment operative on POT5 I will tell you, your team is at an immediate loss when they add a DPS operative to the group.

Not true at all, you're doing it all wrong then. And if you really are the best on your server, then I feel sorry for you guys. Concealment takes skill to work properly. Not everyone can manage them effectively. Just because you can't doesnt mean others are limited as well.

Not true at all, you're doing it all wrong then. And if you really are the best on your server, then I feel sorry for you guys. Concealment takes skill to work properly. Not everyone can manage them effectively. Just because you can't doesnt mean others are limited as well.

The premise of this is thread RWZ; Not pugs. If you add a concealment operative to a competitive-rated team clearly you've added them to defend objectives. It doesn't matter how good you are as an operative without force shroud/resilience you're just going to be cc bombed the moment they figure out you're an operative.

The class does well in pugs; stealth around assassinate healers and defend/solo objective(s). That play-style is ineffective in rateds.

As the best concealment operative on POT5 I will tell you, your team is at an immediate loss when they add a DPS operative to the group.

I disagree with this statement, and this thread. Although not a first choice, a very good concealment operative is very viable in RWZ.

I disagree with this statement, and this thread. Although not a first choice, a very good concealment operative is very viable in RWZ.

You can build an entire specialty team around a concealment operative and be viable in RWZs. That said the deception assassin will do the stealth play better, and can mix it up in mid if trickery isn't working. I don't know of any "major league" teams on any server that consistently run a dps operative/scoundrel since android left his Euro server.

In short, unless you are willing to build the team youself, or are pretty much unquestionably the best pvper on your server (and I mean best across the board not the best operative) there isn't a spot for you on a high level RWZ team. If you like the stealth play go Assassin/Shadow.

The premise of this is thread RWZ; Not pugs. If you add a concealment operative to a competitive-rated team clearly you've added them to defend objectives. It doesn't matter how good you are as an operative without force shroud/resilience you're just going to be cc bombed the moment they figure out you're an operative.

 

The class does well in pugs; stealth around assassinate healers and defend/solo objective(s). That play-style is ineffective in rateds.

I was talking about ranked. Again, don't set your limitations on others.

Yep I agree with all. I have an conc operative that i left and rerolled a smuggler scrapper because of server balance and i have been forced to reroll a sin/mara because op/smug are terribly under powered..

I do extremely well on both my Op and scrapper p, don't feel that the class is underpowered in 1v1 combat, and still I'm saying that an assassin is always going to get your spot first.

Trying to show your epeen in a forum thread doesn't make that fact any less true.

All thanks to the whopping Nerf bat in Jan 2012. The smash to armor pen and cooldowns was way over the top, all thanks to the river of tears from the Sorc crowd.

And then the Sorcs got nerfed and unsubbed anyway, so it was all for naught.

Still got the aftertaste of that bitter pill...

I was talking about ranked. Again, don't set your limitations on others.

Again? I've never set any limitations on anyone, I award you +5 pretentious points though.

Listen, it's not your fault that DPS operatives are a liability on any rated team. It's cute though that you want to make this about your ego and not the limitation of your class. We've tried them before, never liked it. Feel free to link me some concealment operative rated-play videos (not vs pugs) when you get the chance.

In rateds:

You cannot guard; 12 seconds into the match when the opposing hybrid tanksin tries to capture your objective ... surprise he finds out you're an operative. Kill him or don't in another 12 seconds you'll be ambushed by 2 players lawling while they cc cap you. This can be prevented by an assassin; an operative can do nothing.

Join the main fight? Sure, why not. You don't have -30% AoE reduction so you're taking huge hits whenever you're exposed. You can play stealthy stabby if you want but with a stun bubble going off every 3 seconds good luck getting the jump on anyone. But if you do get the jump on someone? Woohoomg you just hit their healer for 4.5k we're going to win now, right?

Should operatives be given a similar +3 second immunity I'd still be concerned with their long-term energy management and would never use them as DPS. Though, then they may be worth a guard slot so they can respec heals to win a voidstar/turtle, but meh.

I was serious when I mentioned all of our assassins are former dps operatives and they blow up other assassins consistently; they are vicious. And you couldn't get them to talk bad about their operatives--they still love that class but they'll admit for team/rated play the assassin is better. Not better in the hands of 'proplayer05' just better.

All thanks to the whopping Nerf bat in Jan 2012. The smash to armor pen and cooldowns was way over the top, all thanks to the river of years from the Sorc crowd.

 

And then the Sorcs got nerfed and unsubbed anyway, so it was all for naught.

 

Still got the aftertaste of that bitter pill...

Finally, someone with a bit of historical perspective responds to this thread. I feel people remembering the CONTEXT of the buffs/nerfs is useful when discussing this.

I love my DPS op in unranked. It has zero place in RWZs. If you think otherwise, I think you've been playing against poor players.

I love my Scoundrel dps and hilariously outdps my guildies in PVE ops all the time cause its a challenge and not a faceroll/4 button class.

I also love using it in WZ, but ive only RWZ with it a few times and I can clearly see the handicaps the class has in comparison to others.

You have almost no utility and while your burst is great (can get a few hits in during that initial stun), you lack a push/taunt/good defensive cooldowns to make you versatile.

RWZ is rarely a 1v1 fight, where Scrappers excel. Even then its almost never less then 3v3 or 2x3.

Have fun playing the Scrapper, I love the class, but dont be serious after all the nerfs to the class and the control that other players have over you. Play sawbones and be awesome....

Again? I've never set any limitations on anyone, I award you +5 pretentious points though.

 

Listen, it's not your fault that DPS operatives are a liability on any rated team. It's cute though that you want to make this about your ego and not the limitation of your class. We've tried them before, never liked it. Feel free to link me some concealment operative rated-play videos (not vs pugs) when you get the chance.

 

In rateds:

 

You cannot guard; 12 seconds into the match when the opposing hybrid tanksin tries to capture your objective ... surprise he finds out you're an operative. Kill him or don't in another 12 seconds you'll be ambushed by 2 players lawling while they cc cap you. This can be prevented by an assassin; an operative can do nothing.

 

Join the main fight? Sure, why not. You don't have -30% AoE reduction so you're taking huge hits whenever you're exposed. You can play stealthy stabby if you want but with a stun bubble going off every 3 seconds good luck getting the jump on anyone. But if you do get the jump on someone? Woohoomg you just hit their healer for 4.5k we're going to win now, right?

 

Should operatives be given a similar +3 second immunity I'd still be concerned with their long-term energy management and would never use them as DPS. Though, then they may be worth a guard slot so they can respec heals to win a voidstar/turtle, but meh.

 

I was serious when I mentioned all of our assassins are former dps operatives and they blow up other assassins consistently; they are vicious. And you couldn't get them to talk bad about their operatives--they still love that class but they'll admit for team/rated play the assassin is better. Not better in the hands of 'proplayer05' just better.

Yeah this is definitely me going on about my ego for a class I do not play. Lol. I get that you're angry that you can't get the class to work properly, it can be frustrating to some from what I hear, but others have done just fine with it, regs and rated warzones. I don't need to provide a video because I have nothing to prove to you. If you feel like you can't play the class because you feel at a disadvantage, then by all means roll another one. Some classes just don't work for some people.

Yeah this is definitely me going on about my ego for a class I do not play. Lol. I get that you're angry that you can't get the class to work properly, it can be frustrating to some from what I hear, but others have done just fine with it, regs and rated warzones. I don't need to provide a video because I have nothing to prove to you. If you feel like you can't play the class because you feel at a disadvantage, then by all means roll another one. Some classes just don't work for some people.

So neither of us play the class and your rated doesn't even use dps operatives and yet you're the guy defending how awesome dps operatives are in rated warzones? Ah, so I've been trolled. Welcome to ignore I guess.

Yeah this is definitely me going on about my ego for a class I do not play. Lol. I get that you're angry that you can't get the class to work properly, it can be frustrating to some from what I hear, but others have done just fine with it, regs and rated warzones. I don't need to provide a video because I have nothing to prove to you. If you feel like you can't play the class because you feel at a disadvantage, then by all means roll another one. Some classes just don't work for some people.

So the class you've never played is just a L2P issue for everyone playing it and you're just awesome for beating them. Seems legit.

Ah so you've resorted to reporting posts because people disagree with you? How cute. I sincerely do hope you learn to be good at the class though. In the right hands, it can be devastating.

So the class you've never played is just a L2P issue for everyone playing it and you're just awesome for beating them. Seems legit.

I can't beat the ones who know how to play the class. Like Sevrow. Others who don't, which is basically everyone else unfortunately, I can beat. Bullit is also an honorable mention right under Sev I might add.

Been playing as a 50 Concealment Op on Fatman (now Prophecy) since January. Same as a 50 Scrapper on the old Infinite Empire (now Bastion). I rolled my characters after the initial round of nerfs, when Shoot First/Hidden Strike knocked down for 3 seconds instead of 1.5, so I was not a part of the initial wave of "game ruining operatives" that initiated the series of class rebalancing changes. But I have a lot of experience with the class and its utility in WZs.

I made a lot of changes to my own gameplay to remain relevant in WZs, including better use of Sabotage Charge (e.g. using it against Sawbones healers when they are under 30% health in the Emergency Medpac loop), more aggressive use of Cloaking Screen to reproc Shoot First/Flechette and throw down a Sleep Dart, maximizing the super underused and overpowered Tendon Blast, knowing when to use Overload Shot against Shadows/Sins, and a variety of other tactics.

In PUG WZs, this was enough to keep me relevant and at the top of the damage and objective point charts. This is true in both post 50 WZs and pre 50 WZs, especially in post 50 WZs once you get an optimal Crit/Surge mix.

RANKED WZs are a different matter. Your lack of defensive cooldowns is crippling in the face of focused fire and coordinated, voice-chat teams. Shield Probe cracks in 1-2 GCDs if you have just 2 people focusing you. Evasion only gives you a 2 second window of survival on a long CD. You can't defend nodes because you get CC locked out, which is a real liability as a ranked WZ stealther.

Gap closing is another issue. Cloaking Screen is a great tool, but you need to juggle its use between resetting your armor pen. and getting out of bad situations. The Fight or Flight changes to Sneak were a step in the right direction, but the move speed bonus still isn't enough. If you are an expert at setting up your cover routes, you can gap close really efficiently, but this doesn't work on all maps and it is easy to avoid.

Although Scrapper DAMAGE OUTPUT is awesome, even in Ranked, you just lack the tank and objective UTILITY of a Sin/Shadow. No Guard. No taunt. No mass taunt. No speed. No shroud. These are just serious problems that Scrapper's can't surmount in Ranked gameplay. PUG WZs? Those are your playground. But in ranked gameplay, you are just outclassed.

The best Operatives I've seen are always running with another Operative. By themselves they are weak due to the nerfs almost a year ago now. In pairs (or more)? Kiss any healer, ball carrier, or node capper on your ranked team goodbye in under 5 seconds (sometimes under 3 if everything crits), and that is without them having backup from any other team members, and even if your healer/node capper/ball carrier is being guarded by a tank.

That being said, it's a very gimmicky way to play if you do a Concealment swarm.