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Mandalorians (Controversy)


Sacharino's Avatar


Sacharino
12.09.2012 , 05:17 PM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
I think it was pre-forum wipe it was, but i'll go through what he says and put it out there.
=========

Blasters- Pretty much already stated, a stupid idea to run at a jedi with one.

Grenades/Mines= Can't really work here, being that jedi can sense danger so mines won't work. Grenades...those can just be force pushed back or away or just avoided, they have a timer of them so you wouldn't really be able to actually have them set off before they are tossed away or whatever.

Gas Attacks= Pretty much stated as already being ineffective.

Energy Shields= While they would work well against lightsabers, they wouldn't work against The Force. The jedi could just crush the shield device that is placed on their opponent thus no shield.

Sniping/Cover= Again..pretty ineffective, due to jedi being able to sense danger and those around them.

Indirectly Attacking= Putting their allies in danger, while it can be effective its not like the jedi can't protect them and their self. Again it can be effective, but it would really depend on what kind of danger their allies would be in.

Orbital Bombardment= This really would be the only sure fire way to actually kill any of them, because the radius of bombardments could be very wide and deadly, but then this isn't really actual combat.

Detection/Hiding their minds= Ya..no The Force is in everyone, meaning it doesn't matter if someone doesn't believe in The Force or doesn't use it. They can be sensed all the same, as for hiding minds...that I can't seem to recall if it was ever disproven as an actual ability that worked effectively or what i'll let someone else take a stab at that.

Overwhelming Odds= Now this has been proven to work, however it only worked because the Jedi were blinded by Sidious as they were fighting and weren't able to react in time to defend themselves properly. That isn't to say if the jedi weren't blinded that they would be able to win, but if they weren't blinded they would have been aware of the danger sooner and had more proper time to defend themselves or run away.
==========

So really 1 attack could work(Orbital Bombardment)

2 attacks are maybe(Overwhelming Odds/Indirect Attack)

1 of which isn't really fighting them, the other 2 there are too many variables in the situation to see if they would actually work.
Thanks for taking the time to answer in detail. I guess i agree with most of what you wrote but some of those points rely on the fact that jedi can predict things in advance or not. So that ability seems to be (to me) still a speculation.

Regarding "Detection/Hiding their minds", i recall lord Scorge doing so in the Revan novel when
Spoiler
Then again, the novel has a few negative views so does that make it an invalid example? If not then it is possible for jedi/sith, but i have no idea if a non force user can (which is the main subject here i guess).

If non force users can then they should be able to snipe (for example) a jedi/sith without it even knowing that there were any danger.
Spoiler


Anyway, basically : I don't actually believe jedi/sith can predict bad things happening in the near futur, hence making them vulnerable to mines and long distance snipers. They could prepare for an attack from a distant sniper and block the attack eventually with its saber, since they have good reflexes but then again it comes down to whether or not a non force user can hide their presence (or at least train in that particular section since all beings seem to have the force in them).

I can't believe i spent about 30 minutes writing this...didn't think it would take that long to get my thoughts (or a rough idea of it anyway haha) on "paper".

Sacharino's Avatar


Sacharino
12.09.2012 , 05:28 PM | #42
Aslo, i think that due to the jedi/sith fast reflexes it tends to make people BELIEVE that they can sense danger. Just a thought, i could be wrong.

Scathe's Avatar


Scathe
12.09.2012 , 05:36 PM | #43
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
I think it was pre-forum wipe it was, but i'll go through what he says and put it out there.
=========

Blasters- Pretty much already stated, a stupid idea to run at a jedi with one.

Grenades/Mines= Can't really work here, being that jedi can sense danger so mines won't work. Grenades...those can just be force pushed back or away or just avoided, they have a timer of them so you wouldn't really be able to actually have them set off before they are tossed away or whatever.

Gas Attacks= Pretty much stated as already being ineffective.

Energy Shields= While they would work well against lightsabers, they wouldn't work against The Force. The jedi could just crush the shield device that is placed on their opponent thus no shield.

Sniping/Cover= Again..pretty ineffective, due to jedi being able to sense danger and those around them.

Indirectly Attacking= Putting their allies in danger, while it can be effective its not like the jedi can't protect them and their self. Again it can be effective, but it would really depend on what kind of danger their allies would be in.

Orbital Bombardment= This really would be the only sure fire way to actually kill any of them, because the radius of bombardments could be very wide and deadly, but then this isn't really actual combat.

Detection/Hiding their minds= Ya..no The Force is in everyone, meaning it doesn't matter if someone doesn't believe in The Force or doesn't use it. They can be sensed all the same, as for hiding minds...that I can't seem to recall if it was ever disproven as an actual ability that worked effectively or what i'll let someone else take a stab at that.

Overwhelming Odds= Now this has been proven to work, however it only worked because the Jedi were blinded by Sidious as they were fighting and weren't able to react in time to defend themselves properly. That isn't to say if the jedi weren't blinded that they would be able to win, but if they weren't blinded they would have been aware of the danger sooner and had more proper time to defend themselves or run away.
==========

So really 1 attack could work(Orbital Bombardment)

2 attacks are maybe(Overwhelming Odds/Indirect Attack)

1 of which isn't really fighting them, the other 2 there are too many variables in the situation to see if they would actually work.
Overwhelming odds have already been proven to work, unless of course you're forgetting how Zett Jukasa died in Episode three. Not to mention there was that one nameless Jedi that was getting shot down in the temple by six troopers. Oh, and then there is the whole of Order 66 since, if Jedi can sense danger, they should have been able to avoid being killed by their own troops. Then there's also a proven fact that the Jedi cannot defend themselves forever. So I'd say that Overwhelming Odds is more than just a "Maybe."

Blasters can work, since all it takes is one lucky shot to get in. After all, if a person is a master of Makashi and only Makashi, they can't defend against blasters and they have to run away or hide behind cover. Dooku was one such master who ended up avoiding blaster fire more than reflecting it. Then there's the whole death by Clone thing. So really, if Blasters didn't work, then how did the clones kill so many Jedi?

Gas attacks can disorient an unprepared Jedi, and a Jedi that doesn't have time to go through the enhanced breathing techniques would be a bit disoriented. But again, you must catch them off guard, probably with a non visible gas or one that is subtly introduced into the air system around them.

As for the energy shield, if a Jedi could just crush it, why did they not destroy the Droideka shields so easily and have to run away? The energy shields are completely resistant to lightsabers and blaster fire alike, and with a Droideka's rapid fire blaster a Jedi has to concentrate on defense rather than destroying the shield generator. So yes, an energy shield would work as long as you could distract the Jedi with something.

Sniping would also work, depending on how far away you are to the Jedi's position and if you were in a crowded area. You may not even have to be in a crowded area for it to work as long as your proximity was good enough. A Jedi cannot sense danger from a mile away, nor can he sense danger that is directly out of his field of senses. The Force is not so all encompassing that it reaches every single thing in the world. This method is even more effective if you are a droid, since droids are even harder to detect through the Force then sentient beings. They have no malice of thought to be detected, so they cannot have their minds read.

Avoiding detection does work, but as said above, only really for droids. Again, they have no malice of forethought, so they wouldn't really be easily detected since the Force relies on sifting through emotions and feelings and not just sensing danger. A droid doesn't have any of these, so they would be much harder to detect. And yes, hiding your thoughts does work, but it takes a very trained mind to do it. Atton managed to do it in KotOR 2 and regardless of whether you believe in the game or not, that he managed to do it proves it can be done. All it takes is to hide your thoughts behind a layer, in Atton's case, he hid behind Pazaak counting.

As for Indirect Attacks, that would also work. A Jedi is forced to save and protect the innocent in order to follow the Jedi code. Put a bunch of innocents in the way and the Jedi will start making mistakes in his own defense just to save the people he or she is charged with protecting. These mistakes leave openings, and in these openings a flaw can be exploited to kill the Jedi.

Hope that helps.

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
12.09.2012 , 06:11 PM | #44
Quote: Originally Posted by Scathe View Post
Overwhelming odds have already been proven to work, unless of course you're forgetting how Zett Jukasa died in Episode three. Not to mention there was that one nameless Jedi that was getting shot down in the temple by six troopers. Oh, and then there is the whole of Order 66 since, if Jedi can sense danger, they should have been able to avoid being killed by their own troops. Then there's also a proven fact that the Jedi cannot defend themselves forever. So I'd say that Overwhelming Odds is more than just a "Maybe."

Blasters can work, since all it takes is one lucky shot to get in. After all, if a person is a master of Makashi and only Makashi, they can't defend against blasters and they have to run away or hide behind cover. Dooku was one such master who ended up avoiding blaster fire more than reflecting it. Then there's the whole death by Clone thing. So really, if Blasters didn't work, then how did the clones kill so many Jedi?

Gas attacks can disorient an unprepared Jedi, and a Jedi that doesn't have time to go through the enhanced breathing techniques would be a bit disoriented. But again, you must catch them off guard, probably with a non visible gas or one that is subtly introduced into the air system around them.

As for the energy shield, if a Jedi could just crush it, why did they not destroy the Droideka shields so easily and have to run away? The energy shields are completely resistant to lightsabers and blaster fire alike, and with a Droideka's rapid fire blaster a Jedi has to concentrate on defense rather than destroying the shield generator. So yes, an energy shield would work as long as you could distract the Jedi with something.

Sniping would also work, depending on how far away you are to the Jedi's position and if you were in a crowded area. You may not even have to be in a crowded area for it to work as long as your proximity was good enough. A Jedi cannot sense danger from a mile away, nor can he sense danger that is directly out of his field of senses. The Force is not so all encompassing that it reaches every single thing in the world. This method is even more effective if you are a droid, since droids are even harder to detect through the Force then sentient beings. They have no malice of thought to be detected, so they cannot have their minds read.

Avoiding detection does work, but as said above, only really for droids. Again, they have no malice of forethought, so they wouldn't really be easily detected since the Force relies on sifting through emotions and feelings and not just sensing danger. A droid doesn't have any of these, so they would be much harder to detect. And yes, hiding your thoughts does work, but it takes a very trained mind to do it. Atton managed to do it in KotOR 2 and regardless of whether you believe in the game or not, that he managed to do it proves it can be done. All it takes is to hide your thoughts behind a layer, in Atton's case, he hid behind Pazaak counting.

As for Indirect Attacks, that would also work. A Jedi is forced to save and protect the innocent in order to follow the Jedi code. Put a bunch of innocents in the way and the Jedi will start making mistakes in his own defense just to save the people he or she is charged with protecting. These mistakes leave openings, and in these openings a flaw can be exploited to kill the Jedi.

Hope that helps.
1. I said Overwhelming Odds are a maybe because theres many variables to consider, and I already stated about Order 66 that the Jedi were being blinded by Sidious to actually sense what was going on. Most of the Jedi in the temple, would be padawans and new fresh jedi knights facing down an entire legion. Zett still managed to make it outside of the Jedi Temple however, so the fact he wasn't killed up until then shows that Overwhelming Odds is a maybe due to the fact he wasn't killed before hand and that a jedi could rather run away or something instead of fight.

2. How can you have an unprepared Jedi who has Precognition? They again would be able to sense danger, before it actually happens.

3. Droideka's have built in shield generators, was mainly looking for the shield generators that are actually visable and an object on someone's belt or arm that the jedi could just crush.

4. You don't need to have thought to feel as if you are in danger, a jedi could sense danger either from a person's thought or if something were about to happen.

5. Again the Indirect Attacking has too many variables to go through, its not like the Jedi allies wouldn't be able to take care of themselves or get themselves out of harm's way.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

Sacharino's Avatar


Sacharino
12.09.2012 , 06:25 PM | #45
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
1. I said Overwhelming Odds are a maybe because theres many variables to consider, and I already stated about Order 66 that the Jedi were being blinded by Sidious to actually sense what was going on. Most of the Jedi in the temple, would be padawans and new fresh jedi knights facing down an entire legion. Zett still managed to make it outside of the Jedi Temple however, so the fact he was killed up until then shows that Overwhelming Odds is a maybe due to the fact he wasn't killed before hand and that a jedi could rather run away or something instead of fight.

2. How can you have an unprepared Jedi who has Precognition? They again would be able to sense danger, before it actually happens.

3. Droideka's have built in shield generators, was mainly looking for the shield generators that are actually visable and an object on someone's belt or arm that the jedi could just crush.

4. You don't need to have thought to feel as if you are in danger, a jedi could sense danger either from a person's thought or if something were about to happen.

5. Again the Indirect Attacking has too many variables to go through, its not like the Jedi allies wouldn't be able to take care of themselves or get themselves out of harm's way.
It was my understanding that this "sense of danger" was actualy quite a vague feeling and not a precise feeling that would indicate that you're about to step on a mine or get shot in the face for example. He might sense that there are people there to kill him but not actually know how. The rest is left to the jedi/siths reflexes, i believe.

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
12.09.2012 , 06:41 PM | #46
Quote: Originally Posted by Sacharino View Post
It was my understanding that this "sense of danger" was actualy quite a vague feeling and not a precise feeling that would indicate that you're about to step on a mine or get shot in the face for example. He might sense that there are people there to kill him but not actually know how. The rest is left to the jedi/siths reflexes, i believe.
Your right, it doesn't give them the exact location where the danger would be coming from. But it would alert the jedi that there is indeed a danger somewhere but that is before the attack is made, the danger sense would be increased telling where the attack would be coming from just in time for the Jedi to react and avoid it. Jedi could also heightened this sense, to actually find the location of the person or where the danger is coming from beforehand without the need for the attack to be made, they could find said person even before the attack is made or just about to be made.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

Rikalonius's Avatar


Rikalonius
12.09.2012 , 06:58 PM | #47
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
Your right, it doesn't give them the exact location where the danger would be coming from. But it would alert the jedi that there is indeed a danger somewhere but that is before the attack is made, the danger sense would be increased telling where the attack would be coming from just in time for the Jedi to react and avoid it. Jedi could also heightened this sense, to actually find the location of the person or where the danger is coming from beforehand without the need for the attack to be made, they could find said person even before the attack is made or just about to be made.
I guess sense danger doesn't work when you are looking right at it. Like when Jango Fett shot that Jedi dead on the balcony of the Geonosian arena. How many Jedi were killed in that battle against battle droids? What does the Republic even need an army for if the almighty Jedi can take on all comers without blinking. Why did Mace flee the scene in the face of Super Battle Droids? Who left the Kamino landing pad in their ship and who left after barely escaping death after he was tossed off the platform? Luke into the trap door. Ki Adi Mundi faced his Clone Troopers and still died. Luke didn't even see Boba Fett coming and the only reason Fett didn't kill him was the stupid accidental death because of George's awful writing and hatred for a bit character becoming so popular with the fans.

On top of all that, how many Jedi WERE killed by Mandalorians in the Mandalorian wars?

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
12.09.2012 , 07:15 PM | #48
Quote: Originally Posted by Rikalonius View Post
I guess sense danger doesn't work when you are looking right at it. Like when Jango Fett shot that Jedi dead on the balcony of the Geonosian arena. How many Jedi were killed in that battle against battle droids? What does the Republic even need an army for if the almighty Jedi can take on all comers without blinking. Why did Mace flee the scene in the face of Super Battle Droids? Who left the Kamino landing pad in their ship and who left after barely escaping death after he was tossed off the platform? Luke into the trap door. Ki Adi Mundi faced his Clone Troopers and still died. Luke didn't even see Boba Fett coming and the only reason Fett didn't kill him was the stupid accidental death because of George's awful writing and hatred for a bit character becoming so popular with the fans.

On top of all that, how many Jedi WERE killed by Mandalorians in the Mandalorian wars?
1. Colemen actually was aware of Jango right as he was shot at, you see him actually deflect some of Jango's attacks. The problem here is, Colemen isn't a warrior he was more a negotiator then anything else his skills with a blade weren't that great, he used Form 1 which is very basic.

2. There were THOUSANDS of battle droids, and only a taskforce of 212 Jedi being that they were outnumbered 50 to 1 and most of those jedi used Form 1 which is just the basic saber form which doesn't really specialize in anything of course most of them would die.

3. You mean Obi-Wan after he kicked Jango's *** even with the help of his son, and he only got away due to the whip cord? Not sure what your getting at here, Obi-Wan lived.

4. Ya he died, due to he was overwhelmed.

5. Pretty sure he saw Boba coming, you actually see Luke watch as he arrives on the skiff and cut his blaster in half before knocking him down. As for after, sure you could make a case for that but it didn't happen that way and Luke was occupied with the other guys with blasters infront of him anyway.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

StarSquirrel's Avatar


StarSquirrel
12.09.2012 , 09:25 PM | #49
For those who say the jedi's precognitive abilities where blocked during the prequel era by Sidious. There are plenty of examples of during the clone wars of Jedi using their 'spidey senses'. The idea that Sidious was blocking ALL the jedi's short range- short time frame precognitive abilities (Battle Precognition) is silly. What Yoda is saying in his overused quote is in reference to the specific Farsight ability.

Now, Sidious was also occupied fighting Yoda during (part of) order 66 (I think) so the idea of selectively blocking at certain times is also silly. The reason I say that quote was about Farsight is that Sidious was known to rely on it heavily, thus it makes sense he would learn to block it as Yoda was a well know user of farsight as well. (you never see Yoda and Windu mention their lack of precognitive abilites in regards to their combat effectiveness, but when they're meditating is when they mention it. I'd think something like losing a major weapon in your arsenal would warrant more than vauge warnings and concerned glances but rather galaxy-wide man hunts and intense discussions.

And for one more thing, the Jedi rely more on emotions in the force around them more than in precognitive abilities to foresee their opponent's attacks (mind reading if you will, combined with precognitive abilities) thus a droid or long range sniper (1-2 miles easy) can avoid this jedi defensive mechanism. Now, mines and grenades are still unusable but snipers and droid become perfect options (one example is the Imperial Agent sniping a jedi in the class video for this game, the jedi even sensed it a bit and still died.)

Yet another hole in precognitive abilities is that they are mostly quick visions and emotions up for interpretation, meaning a jedi may be frozen with indecision or take an action that would easily get them killed.

Edit: Here I should mention some jedi did in-fact survive Order 66, (like Yoda who, as it turns out, seemed to sense the clones lethal intent.) I agree that the clone thing was because there was no real malice and Yoda was meditating when approached (possibly) allowing him to actually read their minds as opposed to emotions (or he heard the holo with enhanced hearing).

I'd love for someone to teach me something if I'm wrong or bring up counter arguments, but if we're going to discuss this more can we make another thread? Lets get back on topic here now.
I know if you look deep into your heart- which is currently all over that tree- you'll find a way to forgive me.

Aww, geez you look like a puppy! A blonde, eviscerated puppy!

-Alucard

JacenHallis's Avatar


JacenHallis
12.09.2012 , 09:31 PM | #50
I believe the reason the Jedi didn't see Order 66 coming is because there was no real malice in the clones' hearts. They were given an order, and they followed through with it. Yoda, being the Grand Master and more in tune with the Force than pretty much anyone else, was finally able to feel something wrong right before he was attacked, and he was the lone example (jn the movie at least) of a Jedi able to escape execution at the hands of his troops.
Ruminara Ven
Passion, yet serenity.