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Flashpoint Player Behaviour.


Jak-'s Avatar


Jak-
12.06.2012 , 09:02 AM | #1
I didn't see any recent posts on this so if I missed one please don't persecute me. hehe

Players refusing to run a flashpoint because they don't wish to do more than certain bosses or because they don't like the gear another player is wearing even before they see if that player can hold their own, is not cool. They need to at least give it a shot before the pronounce that they are wasting their time there. I mean some players are there to get better gear, so if the other player{s} refuse to run the phase because the perceive by looking at a player that their gear isn't to their liking it is not cool.

Devs', I don't know if there is anything that can be done about this, but if there is please give it some thought

As far as players skipping mobs and bosses, Anarchy Online had a solution for this, they had bettwer rewards for clearing a phase 100%. So if there was an Uber-Reward for each player present (like special gear they don't have yet) I am pretty sure it would cut down on the "Mission Blitzing".

I was thinking about these issues and players quitting phases because other players wish to run the phase more completely or whatever, that quitting a phase prematurely would result in a 1/2-1 hour cool-down til they can join another flashpoint, unless the flashpoint is bugged and all players agree to quitting via pop-up when quitting a phase before main objective is complete. I dunno, I am sure this post is not going to have all positive feedback but it is worth consideration. Just an idea, so please no flaming.

psandak's Avatar


psandak
12.06.2012 , 09:35 AM | #2
There is already a "quitter" debuff in place - if a player quits a FP before a boss is killed then they get a debuff that prevents them from queuing for another FP. I believe that debuff lasts 15 minutes. Personally, that's enough for me to stick around to at least the first boss, but obviously not others.

That being said, nothing can (or should) prevent a player from leaving a situation he/she does not to participate in. If that were the case, all the player would do is be an *** until the group kicks him/her. This has been a problem in MMOs since day one and nothing any developer has ever implemented has ever changed it.

Furthermore, SWTOR FPs are not that hard; even HM FPs. On too many occasions I have been in groups where a player has left (for a wide multitude of reasons) and the remaining three players finished the HM FP without waiting for a new fourth to show up.

- I have done a few HM FPs with no tank (two DPS + player healer + healer companion)
- one with no (player) healer (tank, one dps, one dps with some healing ability, and healer companion),
- and several with one (player) dps missing.

In every instance, we would queue for another player and just keep on trucking. We would get to a boss, wait for a minute, and then say, "let's give it a shot. worst case, we wipe." But we never wiped.

Lastly, if you are dead set to clear all bosses, then you probably should not queue in the group finder. Join a guild or chat channel with like minded players and you can all group and clear whatever you like.

I am NOT saying, I am the opposite - one that always wants to skip all "optional" bosses. As a matter of fact, I am more than willing to kill any boss any group member wishes to engage IF you say so ahead of time. What I do not like, is when someone in the group asks, "why'd we skip that boss? Because I want to kill it" as we are passing it by. Announce what you want to do ahead of time, and I have no problem taking the whole two extra minutes to kill whatever boss(es) you want.

_Darkstar's Avatar


_Darkstar
12.06.2012 , 09:56 AM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by psandak View Post
What I do not like, is when someone in the group asks, "why'd we skip that boss? Because I want to kill it" as we are passing it by. Announce what you want to do ahead of time, and I have no problem taking the whole two extra minutes to kill whatever boss(es) you want.
You don't make the assumption that people joining a flashpoint actually want to do that flashpoint? That is a backwards way of doing it.

If you want to skip stuff you should ask the team before you start, that is good manners and if the team isn't ok with skipping stuff then either help them, or leave. People only wanting to do part of the content are the ones that should be forming their own teams. And they should get hammered for leaving early (IE: Not just after the first boss, but anytime before the end), 30 minutes of reduced stats and not being able to requeue or something, so people who leave for a real reason can lose the debuff while offline attending to that real reason, and those who just don't want to play nice will have to suck it up.

If the devs wanted to make it easy they could have an option for the bosses you wanted to clear when you went into the group finder, so likeminded groups would be made, but generally I think most people want to actually do all the content every time.

Edit: Actually the people most likely to want to do an optional boss are the people who don't even know they are there until you are on the way past. IE: New players. You know the people you should be helping to enjoy the game so that it survives.
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Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
12.06.2012 , 10:20 AM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by _Darkstar View Post
You don't make the assumption that people joining a flashpoint actually want to do that flashpoint? That is a backwards way of doing it.
Clearing all the bosses isn't the only way to do the FP. A vast majority of the people doing their daily random GF would rather get it done as quickly as possible, or, at least, don't mind doing it as quickly as possible (if you're curious, just hit up the group with a "skipping?" at the start of the FP; it's rare to find anyone that doesn't just immediately respond in the affirmative). It's not a question of "doing it your way"; it's a question of "doing it the way that most people do it". Just because you're not in that majority yet doesn't mean that the way everyone else is doing it is wrong (especially since the developers have known about the boss and trash skipping behavior in *many* of the FPs for a number of months and haven't done anything about it, which means they either don't care or that it was intentional).

As to penalizing people that leave early, you're seriously getting angrier than you should. Yes, it sucks, but the 15 minute forced time before being able to queue up again is more than enough. Hitting them with a stat debuff just because they didn't want to run with you would just make people more wary about joining the queue, especially if they're wary people (or, as the previous poster said, they would just make themselves nuisances until they were kicked).

It sounds to me like you're just feeling vindictive. I'm gonna bet you're a DPS that has to spend a long time in a queue gets angry when your queue is "wasted" by someone who ducks out early or skips bosses.
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HemaOne's Avatar


HemaOne
12.06.2012 , 10:21 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by _darkstar View Post
you don't make the assumption that people joining a flashpoint actually want to do that flashpoint? That is a backwards way of doing it..
.

You sort of have a point here, but the thing you have to remember is that 9 times out of 10, the group you find yourself in has people in it that have done these flashpoints to death. The guy talking from the tanks perspective does have a point in a way too. Speaking as a Healer and a tank - it literally makes no difference to me if we do the bonus bosses at all - however those that need the gear should make themselves known (imo) so that the group can decide at an earlier stage if they wish to remain in the group or leave causing minimal disruption to the others.

Quote: Originally Posted by _darkstar View Post
if you want to skip stuff you should ask the team before you start, that is good manners and if the team isn't ok with skipping stuff then either help them, or leave. People only wanting to do part of the content are the ones that should be forming their own teams. And they should get hammered for leaving early (ie: Not just after the first boss, but anytime before the end), 30 minutes of reduced stats and not being able to requeue or something, so people who leave for a real reason can lose the debuff while offline attending to that real reason, and those who just don't want to play nice will have to suck it up.
.

I disagree that people wanting to do part of the content should make their own teams. If the point made before about asking about skipping stuff is made, then yes, by all means if it doesn't suit, then leave, or suck it up and 'take one for the team - reducing stats for leaving early isn't the best way to go about this imo, unless of course the person involved is being a bit of a muppet but then, there's no real way to check that in terms of game logic. There's the vote to kick - but then what's to say 3 guildies kick a random out just for being random? Is it fair that that sole player is then penalised through no fault of their own just because 3 guildies are in the wrong? There's no real way either to determine the difference between a dc and a alt-f4 quit, and this would need to be considered into this harsh penalty rule also because someone prone to dc's through no fault of their own wont be happy that they get penalised by the game, as well as their isp.

Quote: Originally Posted by _darkstar View Post
if the devs wanted to make it easy they could have an option for the bosses you wanted to clear when you went into the group finder, so likeminded groups would be made, but generally i think most people want to actually do all the content every time.
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I actually like this idea, it would be especially useful for things like the HK-51 quest where groups disintegrated as soon as they killed HK in false emperor or Foundry leaving usually one or two people mid instance without a tank or healer - sometimes both - however - if this was to be implemented, I wouldn't think it fair that the same standard of loot dropped. Why should someone be able to choose to farm one particular boss over and over for that item they need, they should have to do some degree of work to obtain it - the endgame loot is already ridiculously easy to obtain its not even funny. There's little point to tionese gear as it is without people being able to strap on recruit gear and negate it completely.

Quote: Originally Posted by _darkstar View Post
edit: Actually the people most likely to want to do an optional boss are the people who don't even know they are there until you are on the way past. Ie: New players. You know the people you should be helping to enjoy the game so that it survives.
This is also a fair point, however I'm from the age old tried and tested ways of reading up on instances and tactics before I attempt them - that way I'm less of a burden to my group. I realise not everyone wants to 'research' like this and would rather learn from tackling things head on - but this can also cause problems for the group. I'm not saying I won't help a new guy if they say it's their first time there, but I would also use my knowledge of the instance and make a judgement call on what benefits they would gain from actually taking part in the bonus boss fight especially when it might drop something of little use to them.

To summarise - I think the 15 minute debuff for leaving a flashpoint early is fine. I don't think players should be penalised further for this, however I will say that some degree of gear check would be a good thing to minimize this sort of issue of players being booted for not having adequate gear (I think this is on test center in some form atm).

_Darkstar's Avatar


_Darkstar
12.06.2012 , 10:42 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by HemaOne View Post
You sort of have a point here, but the thing you have to remember is that 9 times out of 10, the group you find yourself in has people in it that have done these flashpoints to death. The guy talking from the tanks perspective does have a point in a way too. Speaking as a Healer and a tank - it literally makes no difference to me if we do the bonus bosses at all - however those that need the gear should make themselves known (imo) so that the group can decide at an earlier stage if they wish to remain in the group or leave causing minimal disruption to the others.
I will reply to the rest later, but the idea is that when content is designed and a reward table is being allocated they have a target audience in mind. That target audience for flashpoints is 'people on the beginning of the gearing up curve' which is fine in the beginning when everyone is at that stage.

Eventually many people outgear the content, so they need to give you an incentive to run it, or those actually on the gearing up curve will never find teams.

All good so far, but if your incentive is right at the end and can be rushed to then that changes the encounter for those it is intended for, in order to cater to those who have already experienced it properly.

What should actually happen is that you should be encouraged to play the content, but you should be encouraged to play it in a way that properly benefits the intended audience, not just in a way that benefits you. So yes give the commendations or whatever upon completion, but it should be upon a full completion and not a partial completion. The very fact you outgear the content means you will be getting it done quickly anyway.

If this model is followed then all players will see the content as it was meant to be, not just the first bunch of players through the doors. Maybe the reward needs to be increased to reflect that 10% more time is needed, but I have no issues with that at all.

I don't just say this because I am a new player, I say it because I know that anything that spoils the new player expereience is generally bad for the health of the game. Those like you running it just for the reward will usually get over the extra few minutes they add on, especially if you are rewarded, but those who are new tend to dislike the 'rush rush rush attitude that skippable content causes, and I an 100% certain that some people have already decided not to sub because of that behaviour.

I am not saying that it is wrong to want to rush, I understand the motivation, but i think it is bad design to allow it.
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_Darkstar's Avatar


_Darkstar
12.06.2012 , 10:51 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
As to penalizing people that leave early, you're seriously getting angrier than you should. Yes, it sucks, but the 15 minute forced time before being able to queue up again is more than enough. Hitting them with a stat debuff just because they didn't want to run with you would just make people more wary about joining the queue, especially if they're wary people (or, as the previous poster said, they would just make themselves nuisances until they were kicked).

It sounds to me like you're just feeling vindictive. I'm gonna bet you're a DPS that has to spend a long time in a queue gets angry when your queue is "wasted" by someone who ducks out early or skips bosses.
Actually I am a tank here (Or will be as I am still lvl 16, and yet to queue for anything. Not that my point is any less valid) and was a healer in WoW (Where I saw a similar thing), so I am less effected by this behaviour than most, I just really disagree with it.

I actually want people to be wary before they queue. Joining the queue is saying 'I want to run flashpoint x with 3 other random people' and as such you should join knowing that you have to respect them, not just leave if you don't like something, which is the behaviour of a child, not an adult and something you don't do beyond the anonymity of the internet. If you have specific needs then it is you who should have to find a way to accomodate those needs, not try and force it on others. Yes I know in this case it might seem it is me with the specific needs, but I don't think it should be that way (See my above post about intended audiences).
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Beltane's Avatar


Beltane
12.06.2012 , 11:06 AM | #8
I am one of those people who likes to do things quickly and efficiently and has done the flashpoints to death since launch. I hate it when people don't spacebar (though I never ask more than once, if that) and I hate it when they pull too much trash that can easily be skipped (emphasis on 'easily').

BUT.

I am quickly getting tired of the mad rush to the end that makes people feel like they have the right to nitpick every single thing. On my tank, I actually got yelled at yesterday by killing a group of trash mobs in Black Talon to go through them instead of jumping around them. You know, the BT normals that literally die in about two hits. I probably delayed progress by about 20 whole seconds by killing them and yet I had two people start complaining and being insulting like "haven't you done this before????? speed fail"

I also looked away for about two seconds only to be trapped on the wrong side of the elevator while the group kept killing trash. Without their tank. And then they started going WHERE IS TANK. I'll counter my "speed fail" with "patience fail."

Then I did a Battle of Ilum, still on my tank. Immediately two people in the group told me (not asked, told) to skip all the bosses. Only trouble is, the only reason I was doing the flashpoint was to help a fresh 50 guildmate gear up. Let's look at what drops from the skippable Battle of Ilum bosses for a second:

Tionese Helmet, Tionese Mainhand, Exotech Gloves, Columi Implant, (Bonus) Tionese Helmet

That gear is all great for a fresh 50 to have. So, I said I was helping someone gear and I'd rather kill the bosses. One DPS left. The healer stayed and kept complaining by saying things like "waste of time, there is no level 55 -___-"

I just don't get this mindset at all. Even killing the bosses, most of the trash is easily skippable in Battle of Ilum so the whole thing was incredibly fast. But I can understand rushing through if everyone there is for BH comms only... but to ragequit/complain if someone actually needs the gear? Ugh.

Just annoying.
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PhantomMalice's Avatar


PhantomMalice
12.06.2012 , 11:20 AM | #9
I hate all these skipping behavior and I am a level 50 Guardian Tank. Albeit I am now considered "undergeared" because I had recently re-subbed with full body Rakata from top to bottom. This puts me in an unique situation as none of the FP gear benefits me nor am I geared enough to face-roll HP FP. But I am not here to talk about gearing.

My number 1 concern since coming back was how little things had changed since 9 months ago: people are still complaining about contents being too easy. They whine about how there is no challenge to the game.

So that made me wonder... "How the hell are you going to feel challenged, when you are skipping 60% of the content?"

I remember back in my day, people are SCARED to go into these HM FP because they are afraid that the boss will roll them over. Now all I see is groups after groups speeder through the entire FP without ever knowing/seeing the mechanics of "lesser" bosses that used to terrorize people.

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haliy
12.06.2012 , 11:25 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Jak- View Post
or because they don't like the gear another player is wearing even before they see if that player can hold their own, is not cool. They need to at least give it a shot before the pronounce that they are wasting their time there. I mean some players are there to get better gear, so if the other player{s} refuse to run the phase because the perceive by looking at a player that their gear isn't to their liking it is not cool.
So, what you are telling me is that if you were to que up threw group finder into (lets say HM Lost island for the sake of argument) and saw that one of the other players showed up in a full set of recruit armor or a mix of recruit and 49 greens, you would give them a chance before deciding yes, you are wasting your time being there? Because we all know that this never happens...

I can tell you right now that if it is not a guildie group and it is threw group finder, 99% of the players who run into that situation i used above will not hesitate to let that individual know they are undergeared to be there and kick them shortly after.

I am all for those who are going to an instance because they need better gear and I am more than willing to help them out with that but there is a difference between them going there to get better gear and them going there to get carried threw the entire flashpoint. If they want to be carried, then they need to make a team themselves instead of queing threw group finder and hoping for the best.
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