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Tanking Stat Weights

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Tanking Stat Weights
 

dipstik's Avatar


dipstik
12.12.2012 , 03:16 PM | #41
i calced for hybrid since many agree that the 4% decrease to all damage is better than the full tank spec which gives 4% decrease to internal/elemental or some such. some argue that the shield you get from scream or soemthing (i dont have a jugg tank) makes full tank better, but i havent calculated if such is the case.

the numbers for 32/7/2 jugg build:

pool def shld abs
1400 769 290 342
1500 775 345 381
1600 786 392 417
1700 800 448 452
1800 818 498 485
1900 858 546 516
2000 860 593 547

so, the def numbers are lower for a full jugg tank

Icebergy's Avatar


Icebergy
12.12.2012 , 06:29 PM | #42
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
The OP does indeed take DR into account. Read his formulae. Stats like defense are definitionally on a DR curve from the very beginning, so it is impossible to get accurate predictions at any point without taking DR into account. The stat allocations given by the OP are correct and optimal, even for guardians.
No he doesn't, because going from 600 to 700 defense only increases your defense chance by around 1%, think about what you are getting above that. At more than 750, do you even gain ANY defense chance with rating?

There is no reason for a guardian to be going above 700, let alone the 800 he is suggesting for even his lowest gear pool.

Also, guardians want about a 2:1 ratio for shield rating to absorb rating until diminishing returns starts wrecking shield at around like 1200ish

http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forum...nt.php?aid=293
Mikal'B, Battlemaster and Fleet Commodore of the Republic.
<Contraband Inc> 10/10 NiM, 4/4 NiM, NMP, 7/12 NiM, HM GF, 4/5 NiM
Jedi Covenant

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
12.13.2012 , 10:15 AM | #43
What he is doing is finding the optimum distribution of a particular stat budget in terms of total mitigation. Look at the formulae. If you don't believe him, take the numbers, stay within the stat budget and try to achieve higher mitigation by shuffling things around (say, from defense into absorb). You will not be able to. You criticize that he's not considering DR when the evidence to the contrary is directly included in the original post. He didn't just subjectively decide on these numbers; they were generated based on the same math that was used to generate the graph you linked.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

dipstik's Avatar


dipstik
12.13.2012 , 11:02 AM | #44
maybe if I explain a bit more....

so the diminshing returns are mathematically decribed by the equations for the particular stat. Take defense chance as a function of defense rating, dr, for example:

( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.3 ) )^( ( (dr) / 50 ) / 0.55 ) )

if you take the derivitive of this function, you will find it has a decreasing slope with increasing dr. that is what diminishing returns means.

once i have all the equations for all the stats (by taking stim, skill tree and debuffs/buffs into account), and i have the equation for squishiness based on these equations, I then determine the lagrange points of the squishiness function. this means i am finding the points for which the squishiness value is minimized.


a simple example of what is called the lagrange multiplier method can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrange_multiplier

that is what i am doing. the comstraint on the system is that dr+shr+abr=N, and i just changes N from 1400 to 2000. each of these calcs took between 5 and 15 minutes for my work computed to compute... so each table took around 2 hours to make. maybe solver in excel would have been faster, but i dont typically rely on excel for optimization problems.

WillLongstick's Avatar


WillLongstick
12.16.2012 , 06:01 PM | #45
This is fantastic stuff, thanks OP. I found a calculator someone coded a while ago and it pretty much agrees with your formulas (don't ask for the link, no idea where I got it). I would like to point out a few points though:

1) You're going to have a ton of shield rating at full Campaign. For tank gear you only have the choice between Accuracy and Shield on enhancements, ears, and implants. At nearly full DG on my Jugg I'm stuck with 520 points in shield. For Sins and Powertechs your results hold up well, but for Juggs the suggested numbers yield shield ratings lower than what you can achieve.

2) People need to realize endurance stacking is intelligent to an extent for all tank classes. If you're taking the 61 mods with 32 endurance to get 10 more defense, you're only preparing yourself for 1 of 3 types of attacks. Force/Kinetic damage bypasses your defense/shield and goes straight to armor, and that kind of damage is all over TFB HM. Elemental damage doesn't care about either defense/shield or armor and hits for a roughly flat 20-25% damage reduction for each tank class, and this type of damage is all over NiM EC. For each of those two damages you can only increase your survivability by upping your armor rating (Full Campaign to Full DG adds less than 1% I believe), or by increasing your endurance.

Really, I feel bad for any healer trying to heal a sub 25k health Jugg on NiM Stormcaller. Balance your mitigation people.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
12.16.2012 , 06:39 PM | #46
Quote: Originally Posted by WillLongstick View Post
2) People need to realize endurance stacking is intelligent to an extent for all tank classes. If you're taking the 61 mods with 32 endurance to get 10 more defense, you're only preparing yourself for 1 of 3 types of attacks. Force/Kinetic damage bypasses your defense/shield and goes straight to armor, and that kind of damage is all over TFB HM. Elemental damage doesn't care about either defense/shield or armor and hits for a roughly flat 20-25% damage reduction for each tank class, and this type of damage is all over NiM EC. For each of those two damages you can only increase your survivability by upping your armor rating (Full Campaign to Full DG adds less than 1% I believe), or by increasing your endurance.

Really, I feel bad for any healer trying to heal a sub 25k health Jugg on NiM Stormcaller. Balance your mitigation people.
Endurance is not mitigation. Endurance doesn't even contribute to survivability unless you're a shadow/assassin. All that you get from endurance is a cushion, no more or less. That cushion gives a healer time to bring you back up, but doesn't make it any *easier* for them to do so. It also dramatically increases the likelihood of getting yourself into a situation where your mitigation failed repeatedly (since your defensive chances will be lower).

As for your claim that unmitigable damage is "all over" TfB HM and NiM EC, that doesn't really hold up. 63.32% of damage in TfB HM melee/ranged + kinetic/energy. 29.29% is force/tech + kinetic/energy. Only 7.38% is force/tech + internal/elemental. I haven't update my spreadsheet for NiM EC yet, beyond the fact that it appears to be the same abilities and swing timers as HM EC but with 15%-ish more damage. Thus, the ratios remain 76.41% m/r + k/e, 8.38% f/t + k/e, 15.21% f/t + i/e. That's hardly "all over" anything.

Defensive stats are the most important thing. Use them and abuse them. Damage which bypasses defenses is usually minor and/or infrequent (e.g. Kephess's bleed turns out to be *very* infrequent when you actually put a timer to it). Endurance is nice when you get it incidentally, but you should *never* be stacking it with the assumption that it will make life easier in the face of "rampant unmitigated damage" (something this game just doesn't have).

The only tanks who should be stacking endurance with an eye toward ease of healing are shadow/assassin tanks, since their self-heal is buffed significantly by their total HP. And even then, this really only comes into the fore as you get into the Dread Guard tier, since that's where you start seeing DR clamping down pretty hard on Absorb and Defense. Vanguards and Guardians should concentrate on defensive stats and not give endurance stacking a second thought.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

_gideon's Avatar


_gideon
12.17.2012 , 09:01 AM | #47
My definition of survivability in an mmo includes a health buffer.

There are survival bottlenecks that require a certain amount of health. They're only present in a few fights but no guild will accept "savage arcing slash is only 2% of his damage output, not worth gearing for". I think I've even used some of your past work to help me determine sensible health minimums.

Just to be clear, for me these are minimums but I prefer to not overshoot them too much so I can have more room for defensive stats. I am on the mitigation/avoidance side of the debate but not as radically as your last post suggests you are.

Mallorik's Avatar


Mallorik
12.17.2012 , 12:54 PM | #48
Im someone who has complained about the mathletes going crazy on this subject to the point of nobody being able to understand what the hell they are talking about but this post is very clear and simple to follow.

Ephesia's Avatar


Ephesia
12.22.2012 , 06:52 AM | #49
Quote: Originally Posted by WillLongstick View Post
This is fantastic stuff, thanks OP. I found a calculator someone coded a while ago and it pretty much agrees with your formulas (don't ask for the link, no idea where I got it). I would like to point out a few points though:

1) You're going to have a ton of shield rating at full Campaign. For tank gear you only have the choice between Accuracy and Shield on enhancements, ears, and implants. At nearly full DG on my Jugg I'm stuck with 520 points in shield. For Sins and Powertechs your results hold up well, but for Juggs the suggested numbers yield shield ratings lower than what you can achieve.

2) People need to realize endurance stacking is intelligent to an extent for all tank classes. If you're taking the 61 mods with 32 endurance to get 10 more defense, you're only preparing yourself for 1 of 3 types of attacks. Force/Kinetic damage bypasses your defense/shield and goes straight to armor, and that kind of damage is all over TFB HM. Elemental damage doesn't care about either defense/shield or armor and hits for a roughly flat 20-25% damage reduction for each tank class, and this type of damage is all over NiM EC. For each of those two damages you can only increase your survivability by upping your armor rating (Full Campaign to Full DG adds less than 1% I believe), or by increasing your endurance.

Really, I feel bad for any healer trying to heal a sub 25k health Jugg on NiM Stormcaller. Balance your mitigation people.
Really, there exists tanks tanking NiM Stormcaller with less than 25k health? Hehe, good luck bro. I feel your pain.

Keyboardninja makes valid points but as usual the mentality of "my way or you are clueless" shines here too. There are other benefits to endurance stacking such as an Enure being able to give you a whopping 10k additional HP which might save you, especially if you go full defense which increases the duration of the buff. It gives more room for a healer to err, and more room for a healer to heal other players, a lot of these numbers and scenarios revolve around Healers playing perfectly -- tanks and dps too -- that just is not realistically the case for a very big majority of the playerbase we encounter in this game. Your guild may have different experiences in their raids than the ones theorycrafting here. Don't get me wrong I don't disagree with their calculations and numbers --- mitigation stacking to 30/50/50 threshold for guardians / juugs is quite ideal and in many ways best scenario, but just because you have something like 30/50/45 with 3k additional hp to make up you are not gonna get this huge change where now you are a "noob" tank which is clueless -- the kind of atmosphere theorycrafters general make about their numbers. Both ways you will find accessible to all the content the game offers you.
Ephesia, Level 55 Jedi Guardian
Tomb of Freedon Nadd (EU)
Member of Catalyst

Kytea's Avatar


Kytea
12.22.2012 , 05:01 PM | #50
Quote: Originally Posted by theblaznee View Post
Why on earth would I write that a post is incomprehensible if it actually wasn't?.. And yes, I can add numbers together, that doesn't make the post any more well written.

What's my statsbudget at any given point in the game? From the outside it just looks like a bunch of random lines with the numbers added up on the side..

So NO, it's not comprehensible or useful in ANY way.. And you writing "yes it is", doesn't make it so..
It is very comprehensible, as demonstrated by the discussions that follow.
I found the explanations and the table quite easy to follow, the OP did a great job.

Now, it's obviously not comprehensible to you. Rather than calling the whole thing incomprehensible, help us help you by telling us what you do not understand, and someone will attempt to clarify it for you.

The stats budget is explained, N is the sum of your ratings (defense + shield + absorption). Then you take the table and it'll give you the most effective distribution in those three stats.