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Tanking Stat Weights


Redklaw's Avatar


Redklaw
12.09.2012 , 05:37 PM | #11
Approaching the question of how to actually value endurance versus a trade-off in mean mitigation lead me to make a spreadsheet evaluating the best cast scenario of Time To Killed (highly slanted in favor of MM, as there is no seperate calculations for attacks that bypass D/S/A).

I found that even with the formulas biased in favor of mitigation, the B variant mods outperform the unlettered variants in TTK by a very good margin (over 10k EHP, with only a 0.56% mean mitigation loss). And this is on a vanguard tank, which has the least to gain from a larger endurance pool.

My numbers (I use all 27B's):
Defense: 377
Shield: 748
Absorb: 587
D+S+A = 1712
MM: 77.69
HP Buffed: 27,950
EHP: 113,557 hp
TTK Buffer: 14.20 Seconds
HPS Required: 1740 HPS

Number if swapped out for unlettered 27 mods:
Defense: 407
Shield: 776
Absorb: 619
D+S+A = 1802
MM: 78.25
HP Buffed: 24,961
EHP: 103,411 hp
TTK Buffer: 12.93 Seconds
HPS Required: 1784 HPS

TTK Buffer and Min HPS based on a boss with a raw dmg output of 8,000 DPS.

Spreadsheets used to figure this out:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...HR6cHc2Y2hzYWc
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...3cU1VWGc#gid=0

grallmate's Avatar


grallmate
12.09.2012 , 06:32 PM | #12
Unfortunately, all that changes when you are getting healed. The ability to handle 230 more DPS with mitigation heavy set up and the same constant healing reflects this. Further, eHP is a terrible (ok maybe not terrible, but redundant) metric in this game. Check out this post for why: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=548875

I also assume by looking at your spreadsheet that you're using stock Campaign/Dreadguard gear given that as you go up a tier, your Mean Mitigation drops for both Shadow and Guardian. Yet you appear to be comparing it to your actual (presumably re-itemized) set up.
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Redklaw's Avatar


Redklaw
12.10.2012 , 12:21 AM | #13
No neither the stock nor the compared theoretical set are stock, both are optimized, my spreadsheet gets the same values as the OP's Lagrange points, so it seems legit. And compare HPS differences. The point is you can actually develop a metric to analyse for the value of EHP versus impact of MM on total tankability.

230 extra tankable dps sounds like a lot...

Until you realize that it's about 8.9k and 9.1k dps for a single 2k HPS healer. You have to look at the scales, NOTHING in the game hits near that hard outside of an enrage timer.

Once again the numbers are very skewed in favor of MM builds, actual mitigation numbers are probably closer to 10-12% lower across the board, which will further skew the numbers in favor of a balanced build.

I am not saying Stack Endurance. I'm saying if you can get an extra 10% HP buffer and only sacrifice half a percent of MM, you should probably do it.

grallmate's Avatar


grallmate
12.10.2012 , 12:27 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Redklaw View Post
No neither the stock nor the compared theoretical set are stock, both are optimized. And compare HPS differences. The point is you can actually develop a metric to analyse for the value of EHP versus impact of MM on total tankability.
Your PT set may be optimized, but I guarantee your Sin and Jugg ones aren't.

The point of the linked thread was two fold:
- The argument for eHP is that a series of unmitigated attacks are what kill tanks. In this game, the string of attacks to kill the tank is approximately 20 seconds long and occurs on average once ever 2 weeks if you are running HM EC, TFB and NMP each week.
- eHP is only useful when not being healed. Add a healer in, and the window for eHP to be relevant is so long that stacking HP isn't needed in the first place. Unless your healer wants to ignore you for 20+ seconds AND you have no CDs left.
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Gralleh Grall'eh Khyar
Gralleh's Guide to Guardian Tanking [UPDATED for 2.0]

Redklaw's Avatar


Redklaw
12.10.2012 , 12:29 AM | #15
Ignore the other stuff, it's left over from playing with something else, I didn't create that spreadsheet for this thread so the non-highlighted stuff is all pretty random. Also if you're looking at this thread in a couple weeks, that link is probably totally changed for some other purpose.

Also note that in practice, both the numbers for MM and EHP don't matter to much, the differences are really to small to notice much in a fight with the way the game is currently tuned. You really aren't going to visibly see a difference in 10k ehp or 0.5% mean mitigation in a fight.

I've been fully mitigation stacked and performed just fine in top end raids and seen tanks endurance stack (over 30k buffed) and perform just as well. Most of your tanking effectiveness will be determined by proper rotation, cooldown usage, and mechanics handling.

The argument is academic, but I really like tuning so I wanted to take a look at an additional metric.

Note: I misspoke earlier, when I said the "stock set" I meant what I'm actually wearing (hey, it's stock to me!). I see where the confusion is coming from.

Xtrema's Avatar


Xtrema
12.10.2012 , 01:32 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
They're comprehensible. The values at the left of each column are the total stat budget and the 3 values to the right of it are the ratings that you should stack up to with that given budget. It's actually pretty simple.
Hey Kitru - I think I remember you saying you have a jugg tank? If so how closely do you follow the numbers here? I have roughly 1800 budget now stacked to 29/50/50. If I were to follow this, I'd have roughly 33/45/45, is this really the way to go for juggs? Doesn't stacking so much defense end up with the jugg having very spiky dmg? It's a question for anybody but Kitru always gives the most thorough answers so wanted to try picking his brain a little :P
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theblaznee's Avatar


theblaznee
12.10.2012 , 03:47 AM | #17
I think I've got it now then.. But if the OP really wants to help out the community, a little bit more of an explanation is probably worth putting into the posts..

Now the question is, are these stat weights even possible in game? Or are they simply the mathmatically optimal ones?.

Right now my VG is 176 727 604.. Without sacrificing any shield/absorb I can get something like 49 defense more with just BH gear.. I don't have the means to kit out my VG in rating 150 gear in all slots. I only have BH rating 146 to play with still. Then I could go a bit more defense happy, but that would most of all affect my absorb rating, and not my shield chance.. And that just seems like a dumb thing to do. Ofcourse I could just boost my accuracy in order to reach a perfect stat weight - but really??

For fun I looked at the DG supercommando set, and the mitigation stats on the core supercommando set are pretty horrific, and even has Defense as the highest stat.
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Kitru
12.10.2012 , 10:38 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Xtrema View Post
If so how closely do you follow the numbers here?
I've got a Guardian tank, but my Shadow is my main so I don't focus as heavily on gearing her perfectly as I do my main. As such, I do actually try to follow the general gist of the optimal weights, mainly because it's true that defense is substantially useful to a Guardian than Shield/Abs.

Quote:
Doesn't stacking so much defense end up with the jugg having very spiky dmg?
When calculating spikiness, you first have to look at each of the comparative chances of mitigation: with 29/50/50, you've got a 29% chance of taking no damage, a 35.5% chance of taking half damage, and a 35.5% chance of taking full damage; with 30/45/45, you've got a 33% chance of taking no damage, 30.15% chance of taking half damage, and a 36.85% chance of taking full damage. Since your DR should be completely static (same talents and same armor rating), the only difference in spikiness arrives from the difference in those percentages (Shadows have higher spikiness than either of the other tanks specifically because they have *way* lower DR). You're only 1.35% more likely to take an unmitigated hit so you're *slightly* spikier, but it's such a small amount that its not likely to be noticeable. In the same vein, you'll end up taking less damage over the entire course of a fight: the first setup would have you take ~53.25% damage pre-DR; the second would have you take ~50.42% damage pre-DR. That nearly 3% difference is pretty massive, so you're trading off a bit of spikiness for a pretty large increase in total mitigation.

The reason that Guardians care so little for Shield/Abs is pretty simple actually: Shield and Absorb are synergistically useful. To make Shield useful as a mitigation stat, you need a lot of Absorb; to make Absorb useful as a mitigation stat, you need a lot of Shield. Shadows and VGs both get plenty of Shield and Absorb from their respective tank specs. Guardians, on the other hand, do not. In fact, they get a lot of Defense, which ends up just making Defense even more valuable (the higher a mitigation stat gets as a percentage, the more valuable from a comparative mitigation standpoint further increases get). Once you realize that, it becomes pretty obvious that Defense stacking is the way to go.
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Kitru
12.10.2012 , 10:43 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by theblaznee View Post
Now the question is, are these stat weights even possible in game? Or are they simply the mathmatically optimal ones?.
They're not explicitly possible, mainly because it assumes that Shield directly competes with Absorb and Defense rating, which doesn't happen except in augs, which should never be devoted to Shield rating. The way that I use them is to determine how to tweak my relevant Absorb/Defense ratio to get closer to the optimal loadout. They're not explicit numbers that I aim for, but they're decent guidelines for what general ratio to approach while getting kitted out.
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Xtrema's Avatar


Xtrema
12.10.2012 , 01:24 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
When calculating spikiness, you first have to look at each of the comparative chances of mitigation: with 29/50/50, you've got a 29% chance of taking no damage, a 35.5% chance of taking half damage, and a 35.5% chance of taking full damage; with 30/45/45, you've got a 33% chance of taking no damage, 30.15% chance of taking half damage, and a 36.85% chance of taking full damage. Since your DR should be completely static (same talents and same armor rating), the only difference in spikiness arrives from the difference in those percentages (Shadows have higher spikiness than either of the other tanks specifically because they have *way* lower DR). You're only 1.35% more likely to take an unmitigated hit so you're *slightly* spikier, but it's such a small amount that its not likely to be noticeable. In the same vein, you'll end up taking less damage over the entire course of a fight: the first setup would have you take ~53.25% damage pre-DR; the second would have you take ~50.42% damage pre-DR. That nearly 3% difference is pretty massive, so you're trading off a bit of spikiness for a pretty large increase in total mitigation.

The reason that Guardians care so little for Shield/Abs is pretty simple actually: Shield and Absorb are synergistically useful. To make Shield useful as a mitigation stat, you need a lot of Absorb; to make Absorb useful as a mitigation stat, you need a lot of Shield. Shadows and VGs both get plenty of Shield and Absorb from their respective tank specs. Guardians, on the other hand, do not. In fact, they get a lot of Defense, which ends up just making Defense even more valuable (the higher a mitigation stat gets as a percentage, the more valuable from a comparative mitigation standpoint further increases get). Once you realize that, it becomes pretty obvious that Defense stacking is the way to go.
Thanks Kitru, if that's the case and we prioritize defense over shield/abs, does that mean you would advocate using the PT set bonus for the +2% defense over the warrior tank set bonuses? Since that's taking a full 2% defense over a boost in our absorb ability.
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