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Vanguard - Hard Mode Stats PLEASE HELP!

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Trooper > Vanguard
Vanguard - Hard Mode Stats PLEASE HELP!

MattFrontino's Avatar


MattFrontino
12.11.2012 , 10:34 PM | #11
zzzzz....try not to get butt hurt so bad

15% is about 250 defense. Test out your gear, @ 300 defense I lose 18 points and I lose .47% defense. @60% absorb (568), you take off 41 points and you lose 1.3% absorb. You lose more absorb yes, but you aren't getting full mitigation so it's not worth as much, about 60% worth what the defense is. If you drop ~80 points from both shield and absorb, and put them into defense, you'll get those stats, which leaves you at about ~20% ~58% ~58%

I got nothing to prove to you, I just thought i'd let the world/OP know that your calculations are slightly off because you haven't factored in damage mitigation/avoidance. I'm not telling you how to play, do whatever you want I don't really care.

And remember, it's just a game.

PS: If by spec effectiveness you mean ammo management, that's laughable. Ammo is generated so easily, that 1% of shield is not going to change anything in terms of ammo generation. If you are stuck at no ammo regen, that means you can't manage your ammo to begin with, and your DPS is going to suffer regardless of the tiny bit of shield you took out and put into defense
Frontino - Vanguard
<Final Chapter>

Olostur's Avatar


Olostur
12.12.2012 , 02:25 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by MattFrontino View Post
... @ 300 defense I lose 18 points and I lose .47% defense. @60% absorb (568), you take off 41 points and you lose 1.3% absorb. You lose more absorb yes, but you aren't getting full mitigation so it's not worth as much, about 60% worth what the defense is.
Justcae is best suited to reply to most of what you said, so I'll limit myself to this: if you value absorb at 60% of defence, then multiply that 1.3 by 0.6. What do you get? 0.78, which is still greater than 0.47. So by your own value system, it seems like you're making his point. Even your value system is too vague. The value of absorb is related directly to how much shield you have. Giving a discrete number is simply wrong.

Quote:
PS: If by spec effectiveness you mean ammo management, that's laughable. Ammo is generated so easily, that 1% of shield is not going to change anything in terms of ammo generation. If you are stuck at no ammo regen, that means you can't manage your ammo to begin with, and your DPS is going to suffer regardless of the tiny bit of shield you took out and put into defense
This also seems misleading, or at least too vague. Comparing his spec to the high-defense one posted prior, he has about 4.2% more shield, not 1%. Furthermore, the difference in procs is a lot larger than that because your defense is rolled before your shield: in the high-defense case only 1-0.2259 = 77.41% of melee/ranged attacks can be shielded at all. Multiplying by the shield chance gives a 42.77% chance to proc on any given hit. In the low-defense build, you have (1-0.1384)*0.5942 = 51.20% chance to proc on a given attack. That's quite a lot more than a 1% difference between the two AMR builds that were linked in this thread! I used the AMR builds because those are provably attainable. Make your own AMR profile and I'll gladly do the same math on it.

Also, it would be possible to keep your ammo full even if you had no regen. You'd just do nothing but auto attack. To say that it's possible is not to say that it's optimal. Also, no one would disagree that if you drop into the bottom regen bracket your DPS will suffer, but it's not even close to the point. If you play with three fingers your DPS will suffer. If your cat suddenly decides to vomit on your keyboard your DPS will suffer. What is relevant is that if you have more ammo to spend, your DPS and threat will increase. The 1% pulled from your digestive terminus would be negligeable. Would 4%? What about 5%? What about the ~9% shown above? What would be the threshold? If you answer that one, I hope you base it on logic rather than made-up numbers.

What we have here are two ideas that exist in tension. Yes, at some point defense rating will become more valuable than shield/absorb rating for pure survivability. However, even at that point it can be worth over-valuing shield somewhat due to the procs that you get from shielding an attack. In doing so, you also raise the relative value of absorb slightly, since the two are directly related. This is a very basic optimization problem. The question is merely one of where you find equilibrium. I have yet to see you make a reasoned argument on those terms for your chosen numbers.
~ Darth Decimal ~

Nursejenna's Avatar


Nursejenna
12.12.2012 , 03:20 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by MattFrontino View Post
zzzzz....try not to get butt hurt so bad

15% is about 250 defense. Test out your gear, @ 300 defense I lose 18 points and I lose .47% defense. @60% absorb (568), you take off 41 points and you lose 1.3% absorb. You lose more absorb yes, but you aren't getting full mitigation so it's not worth as much, about 60% worth what the defense is. If you drop ~80 points from both shield and absorb, and put them into defense, you'll get those stats, which leaves you at about ~20% ~58% ~58%

I got nothing to prove to you, I just thought i'd let the world/OP know that your calculations are slightly off because you haven't factored in damage mitigation/avoidance. I'm not telling you how to play, do whatever you want I don't really care.

And remember, it's just a game.

PS: If by spec effectiveness you mean ammo management, that's laughable. Ammo is generated so easily, that 1% of shield is not going to change anything in terms of ammo generation. If you are stuck at no ammo regen, that means you can't manage your ammo to begin with, and your DPS is going to suffer regardless of the tiny bit of shield you took out and put into defense
I'm trying to understand exactly what makes you believe that you are even qualified to provide advice here and shoot off your illogical trap. See how it was nice of Justcae and _gideon to provide advice based on their knowledge of tanking - as they have both tanked end-game content (Justcae 8man EC NiM and gideon 16 man TFB HM ), both capable of offering advice based on common sense and successful Ops experience. All we know of you is that you are incapable of graph interpretation, reading comprehension, and from what I see (and could be wrong) not very successful Ops experience. But grats on clearing HM denova and working on TFB.
~*Nursejen*~
Readers are plentiful; thinkers are rare.

MattFrontino's Avatar


MattFrontino
12.12.2012 , 05:21 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Nursejenna View Post
I'm trying to understand exactly what makes you believe that you are even qualified to provide advice here and shoot off your illogical trap. See how it was nice of Justcae and _gideon to provide advice based on their knowledge of tanking - as they have both tanked end-game content (Justcae 8man EC NiM and gideon 16 man TFB HM ), both capable of offering advice based on common sense and successful Ops experience. All we know of you is that you are incapable of graph interpretation, reading comprehension, and from what I see (and could be wrong) not very successful Ops experience. But grats on clearing HM denova and working on TFB.
Sorry if i was vague. I didn't have time early in the morning to actually write out all the stats, and the amount of ammo you get per 1% of shield per every 6 seconds the ability can proc, and based on your reply you aren't really willing to hear it. Jedi Covenant Faction first HM EC actually. And I have a BS in Mathematics and Statistics. I understand the DR graph, as well as the limitations to it.
Frontino - Vanguard
<Final Chapter>

MattFrontino's Avatar


MattFrontino
12.12.2012 , 05:35 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Olostur View Post
Justcae is best suited to reply to most of what you said, so I'll limit myself to this: if you value absorb at 60% of defence, then multiply that 1.3 by 0.6. What do you get? 0.78, which is still greater than 0.47. So by your own value system, it seems like you're making his point. THIS IS WRONG BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T ACTUALLY CALCULATE 1 POINT OF DEFENSE COMPARED TO 1 POINT OF ABSORB. THE NUMBERS WERE 41 ABS TO 18 DEFEven your value system is too vague. The value of absorb is related directly to how much shield you have. Giving a discrete number is simply wrong.



This also seems misleading, or at least too vague. Comparing his spec to the high-defense one posted prior, he has about 4.2% more shield, not 1%. Furthermore, the difference in procs is a lot larger than that because your defense is rolled before your shield: in the high-defense case only 1-0.2259 = 77.41% of melee/ranged attacks can be shielded at all. Multiplying by the shield chance gives a 42.77% chance to proc on any given hit. In the low-defense build, you have (1-0.1384)*0.5942 = 51.20% chance to proc on a given attack. That's quite a lot more than a 1% difference between the two AMR builds that were linked in this thread! I used the AMR builds because those are provably attainable. Make your own AMR profile and I'll gladly do the same math on it.YOU CAN ONLY PROC EVERY 6 SECONDS, WHICH SEVERELY LIMITS THIS. THAT IS WHAT MAKES THIS A NON-ISSUE. IF IT WAS EVERY ROLL, YOU WOULD BE CORRECT

Also, it would be possible to keep your ammo full even if you had no regen. You'd just do nothing but auto attack. To say that it's possible is not to say that it's optimal. Also, no one would disagree that if you drop into the bottom regen bracket your DPS will suffer, but it's not even close to the point. If you play with three fingers your DPS will suffer. If your cat suddenly decides to vomit on your keyboard your DPS will suffer. What is relevant is that if you have more ammo to spend, your DPS and threat will increase. The 1% pulled from your digestive terminus would be negligeable. Would 4%? What about 5%? What about the ~9% shown above? What would be the threshold? If you answer that one, I hope you base it on logic rather than made-up numbers.THATS DUMB, MY DPS IS 700 IN FULL TANK GEAR BECAUSE I MANAGE MY AMMO WELL. BETWEEN RECHARGE CELLS AND SHIELD CYCLER, IF YOU DON'T HAVE AMMO ITS ONLY BECAUSE YOU ARE SPAMMING ION CELL

What we have here are two ideas that exist in tension. Yes, at some point defense rating will become more valuable than shield/absorb rating for pure survivability. However, even at that point it can be worth over-valuing shield somewhat due to the procs that you get from shielding an attack. In doing so, you also raise the relative value of absorb slightly, since the two are directly related. This is a very basic optimization problem. The question is merely one of where you find equilibrium. I have yet to see you make a reasoned argument on those terms for your chosen numbers.
The benefits you are describing are overstated because you are limited by the number of procs you can have. Also why the proc relics just are not that great. Also, because you go so high into DR on shield absorb, if you use proc relics it makes them less effective. I'll take the higher defense with less S/A, and get a greater boost from the S/A on-use relic. That's my decision though, play it how you want
Frontino - Vanguard
<Final Chapter>

Nursejenna's Avatar


Nursejenna
12.12.2012 , 06:04 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by MattFrontino View Post
Sorry if i was vague. I didn't have time early in the morning to actually write out all the stats, and the amount of ammo you get per 1% of shield per every 6 seconds the ability can proc, and based on your reply you aren't really willing to hear it. Jedi Covenant Faction first HM EC actually. And I have a BS in Mathematics and Statistics. I understand the DR graph, as well as the limitations to it.
Well color me embarrassed! A server first on EC HM? That's impressive...considering a tank (Justcae) with a mix of "just turned lvl 50" blues and a few Columi pieces can tank that without a problem. *Golf Clap*. AND!! a BS in mathematics and stats...well hell. I'm not sure a more qualified person even exists to comment on the forums any longer aside from you. Did they teach you how to interpret graphs with that fancy education of yours?
~*Nursejen*~
Readers are plentiful; thinkers are rare.

MattFrontino's Avatar


MattFrontino
12.12.2012 , 06:12 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Nursejenna View Post
Well color me embarrassed! A server first on EC HM? That's impressive...considering a tank with a mix of "just turned lvl 50" blues and a few Columi pieces can tank that without a problem. *Golf Clap*. AND!! a BS in mathematics and stats...well hell. I'm not sure a more qualified person even exists to comment on the forums any longer aside from you. Did they teach you how to interpret graphs with that fancy education of yours?
Rep first. Not server.

And I'm the one who doesn't know how to read...SMH

Why are you so nasty?

So according to below, she's nasty because she has no idea about tanking stats, and offers nothing to the conversation because this guy turns out to be a guildmate. Maybe your guild needs to talk to its tank about his stats.
Frontino - Vanguard
<Final Chapter>

Nursejenna's Avatar


Nursejenna
12.12.2012 , 06:31 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by MattFrontino View Post
Rep first. Not server.

And I'm the one who doesn't know how to read...SMH
You're right - I gave you more credit than was deserved. Thank you for calling me on that. Perhaps now you can move on to downing the more recent content.

As for the "Why are you so nasty?" comment that was added in after..
- This is me being nice. You are training the next generation of vanguards to be like you. As a healer..I find this irritating because I'm going to be stuck healing some tank that can function well on paper but not actually in an Ops.
~*Nursejen*~
Readers are plentiful; thinkers are rare.

Olostur's Avatar


Olostur
12.12.2012 , 06:34 PM | #19
Quote:
THIS IS WRONG BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T ACTUALLY CALCULATE 1 POINT OF DEFENSE COMPARED TO 1 POINT OF ABSORB. THE NUMBERS WERE 41 ABS TO 18 DEF
Those are the numbers that you chose for your prior argument.

Quote:
YOU CAN ONLY PROC EVERY 6 SECONDS, WHICH SEVERELY LIMITS THIS. THAT IS WHAT MAKES THIS A NON-ISSUE. IF IT WAS EVERY ROLL, YOU WOULD BE CORRECT
No, if there were no rate limit I would be more correct. The advantage that I outlined holds for all time not in the internal cooldown. Since you felt compelled to list your academic achievements, let's calculate the expected rate of proc'ing for each build. When not on cooldown we have a bernoulli sequence. The number of trials before a success is a geometric distribuation; expectation = 1/p. For the high defense build that is 2.34. For the high shield build, we get 1.95. Assume one hit per GCD and add on the internal cooldown (which you, as a true master of mathemetics certainly knows is independant and can be added directly) and we get an expected proc rate of 9.51 vs 8.93. That's still roughly a 5% advantage. (Variance on the two builds is 3.13 for high-defense and 1.86 so it's also clear which is more consistent over a shorter time frame).

The one hit per GCD assumption is obviously questionable. In an AOE tanking situation it's obviously terrible and in that case you're right that the proc rate becomes negligable. However, in a boss tanking situtation, it's not unlikely that the hit rate is actually less than one per GCD. In that case the advantage of the shield build becomes slightly higher.

Quote:
THATS DUMB, MY DPS IS 700 IN FULL TANK GEAR BECAUSE I MANAGE MY AMMO WELL. BETWEEN RECHARGE CELLS AND SHIELD CYCLER, IF YOU DON'T HAVE AMMO ITS ONLY BECAUSE YOU ARE SPAMMING ION CELL
Given your esteemed mathematical background, surely you understand how little your specific DPS is relevant. With more ammo you could do more. The question is one of optimization. More specifically, to what degree is it worth over-valuing shield to increase proc chance. When you progress further than EC you will start to encounter DPS like my sentinel who break 2k sustained. At that point, 700 doesn't look all that big. Taunt boosting obviously helps, but there are also fights where you need your taunts at specific points (nightmare-mode Firebrand/Stormcaller says hi) as well as fights where you can't always be targeted on the same mob as the DPS (nightmare-mode Vorgath I see you).

Thus far you have been given specific builds, real-world numbers, logic, and mathematical argument. You have responded with ANGRY RED CAPS STATEMENTS THAT ARE VAGUE AND DO NOT FORM A COHESIVE ARGUMENT. You'll have to be a lot more specific than that.

In truth, the hard-mode EC tier of content does not require tight optimization. The myriad of opinions in this thread is proof enough of that. I remember doing HM EC with a tank in Tionese gear and doing just fine (well before we over-geared it in 63 mods). With that in mind, a lot comes down to personal preference because the content is actually pretty forgiving as long as you understand the strategy.

This debate has really turned into a nightmare-mode debate. Only at that point does this degree of min/max-ing really become important. Until you've done those fights (I'm 4/4 NiM EC), it's hard to have an informed opinion on it.
~ Darth Decimal ~

MattFrontino's Avatar


MattFrontino
12.12.2012 , 08:09 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Olostur View Post
Those are the numbers that you chose for your prior argument.

Just because i chose the numbers, doesn't make your calculations right. The point of choosing the numbers was to do simple division and find how much each point was worth at that level. Guess you weren't even up to that task

No, if there were no rate limit I would be more correct. The advantage that I outlined holds for all time not in the internal cooldown. Since you felt compelled to list your academic achievements, let's calculate the expected rate of proc'ing for each build. When not on cooldown we have a bernoulli sequence. The number of trials before a success is a geometric distribuation; expectation = 1/p. For the high defense build that is 2.34. For the high shield build, we get 1.95. Assume one hit per GCD and add on the internal cooldown (which you, as a true master of mathemetics certainly knows is independant and can be added directly) and we get an expected proc rate of 9.51 vs 8.93. That's still roughly a 5% advantage. OK, so I am the one who pull numbers out of the air? And 5% advantage is misleading, as expected proc rate is the difference of half a second? OK, I guess I'll take it for what you say it is. Let's remember this is an offensive bonus, so weigh it against defensive improvements(Variance on the two builds is 3.13 for high-defense and 1.86 so it's also clear which is more consistent over a shorter time frame).

The one hit per GCD assumption is obviously questionable. In an AOE tanking situation it's obviously terrible and in that case you're right that the proc rate becomes negligable. However, in a boss tanking situtation, it's not unlikely that the hit rate is actually less than one per GCD. In that case the advantage of the shield build becomes slightly higher.[COLOR="rgb(139, 0, 0)"]On a boss whose rate is less than 1 hit per CD, you aren't really concerned about your ammo proc as opposed to the actual odds you have of mitigating that damage[/COLOR]


Given your esteemed mathematical background, surely you understand how little your specific DPS is relevant. With more ammo you could do more. The question is one of optimization. More specifically, to what degree is it worth over-valuing shield to increase proc chance. When you progress further than EC you will start to encounter DPS like my sentinel who break 2k sustained. At that point, 700 doesn't look all that big. Taunt boosting obviously helps, but there are also fights where you need your taunts at specific points (nightmare-mode Firebrand/Stormcaller says hi) as well as fights where you can't always be targeted on the same mob as the DPS (nightmare-mode Vorgath I see you).

I've progressed farther than EC HM guys...5/5 on TFB and 2/4 NM EC only because we haven't had the chance to do it. DPS is relevent because you had assumed I auto-attacked the entire fight. Optimization comes from not just optimizing a particular offensive ability

Thus far you have been given specific builds, real-world numbers, logic, and mathematical argument. You have responded with ANGRY RED CAPS STATEMENTS THAT ARE VAGUE AND DO NOT FORM A COHESIVE ARGUMENT. You'll have to be a lot more specific than that.
[COLOR="Dark Red"]Only a moron thinks caps are the same as anger[/COLOR]

In truth, the hard-mode EC tier of content does not require tight optimization. The myriad of opinions in this thread is proof enough of that. I remember doing HM EC with a tank in Tionese gear and doing just fine (well before we over-geared it in 63 mods). With that in mind, a lot comes down to personal preference because the content is actually pretty forgiving as long as you understand the strategy.

EC HM did require optimization when everyone was wearing rakata gear with no augments. Maybe you don't remember those days


This debate has really turned into a nightmare-mode debate. Only at that point does this degree of min/max-ing really become important. Until you've done those fights (I'm 4/4 NiM EC), it's hard to have an informed opinion on it.
You asked me for my "credentials" so I gave them.

So you want numbers? I didn't have time in the morning but I have some now:

DEFENSE: 16.20%
SHIELD: 58.80%
ABSORB: 60.3%

Taking off 18 points of defense leaves me at 15.73%, a .47% loss
Taking off 18 points of shield leaves me at 58.36%, a .44% loss

Now, consider the damage:

CASE 1: HIGH SHIELD
15.73% DEF
58.36% SHIELD

Roll 1 15.73% chance of 100% DR
Roll 2 58.80% chance of 60.3% DR

51.1864% of damage reduced/mitigated

CASE 2: HIGH DEFENSE

16.20% DEF
58.36% SHIELD

Roll 1 16.20% chance of 100% DR
Roll 2 58.36% chance of 60.3% DR

51.3911 % of damage reduced/mitigated

So this calculation is for SHIELD, which will cause your cycler to proc less often. I'll take the DR boost, use the proc relic(which will add to the shield percentage more now that the stat is slightly lower).

Let's do the same calculation with a mix shield/absorb

Absorb loss is .58% per 18 points of absorb

CASE 1A: HIGH ABSORB/SHIELD
15.73% DEF
60.03% ABSORB
58.80% SHIELD

Roll 1 15.73% chance at 100% DR
Roll 2 58.80% chance at 60.3% DR

Same as before - 51.1864% DR

CASE 2A: HIGH DEFENSE
16.20% DEF
59.74% ABSORB
58.58% SHIELD
(calculated as just half, skewing the results in your favor slightly)
51.1956% DR

Not to mention using the proc relic now will raise your S/A by a larger percentage than in the high S/A build.

OK, so DR is clearly higher. Now look at the side effects, less shield cycler proc. OK, but the real impact of that is very small, as RECHARGE CELLS and RESERVE POWERCELL are generally free ammo savers. If a boss is only hitting 1/GCD, then it's more important that you dodge/shield that attack then trying to catch up on ammo.
Frontino - Vanguard
<Final Chapter>