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[XXX] Answers Questions Regarding Statistics

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
[XXX] Answers Questions Regarding Statistics
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RyderQuanTy's Avatar


RyderQuanTy
12.05.2012 , 01:50 PM | #81
Its good to see a nice thread but here is my take.

Some classes like shadows with stelth can tip the tides of the objectives like no other class stealth restelth sprint and defences make them better than others at protecting and capturing objectives.

Fix by Buff mercs a better stelth scan with snear Vig guardian presance proc an icon if aany enemy is in 10m


Smash/ sweep has a counter 2 classes have 30% aoe damage reduction Tactic/AP and Infili and ss/snipers have 60% .

And force bubble could work the other way when it breakes u can not be cc'd for 3 sec just need to be higher up the tree.
" The force is only for defence. There is no why"

RyderQuanTy's Avatar


RyderQuanTy
12.05.2012 , 02:00 PM | #82
Quote: Originally Posted by islander View Post
Absolutely. Just like WoW failed to do this, refusing to have seperate effects for PvP and PvE ultimately hurt the game. Any game.
PVE and PVP balance can be achieved by a bigger variety of gear set bonus. I use Mercs as an ex PVE wise they are fine just add set bonus on pvp gear that makes the agro dump reset tech override and knock back. Plus make knock back reduce accuracy by 50% for 3 sec and the merc is fixed . You don't need sepperat trees just gear.
" The force is only for defence. There is no why"

Jherad's Avatar


Jherad
12.05.2012 , 02:04 PM | #83
Quote: Originally Posted by TUXs View Post
Great points, I agree with them all!

I really like your suggestion of a small (private) committee as well. I think having several players, representing all classes and skill levels, would be best, but that may be too large of a pool - 8 minimum. Selecting 1 person narrows the feedback to only that players perspective. I'd love to see the opinions of players starting PvP (basically the challenges they see), players who casually PvP and those who have mastered it (top Ranked players). Have them sign NDAs and make a private forum for them.
Yeah, not gonna happen in a million years (no offense intended to you). Community engagement is at an all time low - even forum moderation has gone to the dogs. A separate forum for a select few with close access to devs is asking a lot even for a game which hasn't pared down its staff to a skeleton crew. Which this one has.

All of this is just so much forum wankery (like the class feedback threads) without BW buy-in.
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Macroeconomics's Avatar


Macroeconomics
12.05.2012 , 02:36 PM | #84
For 12 months I've been saying that ToR's ingame statistical collection system is revolutionary but the human (developer's) interpretation of those statistics is fatally flawed. Those flaws have been mentioned by others in this thread, but principally revolve around the inability of the collected statistics to control for variance in player quality/skill. I think very few people in the subscriber community doubt these issues anymore.

The real question is can BW summon the courage to admit they can no longer use their ingame statistics as a metric to manage class (im)balance? And here the indications are not good. Jonathan Crow's Q&A shows that the ingame statistics still occupy a large amount of dev time and analysis. They probably still have multiple bodies devoted to management and maintenance of that system. Those people will argue til their last breath that the ingame statistical system should still be used - their jobs depend on it. They are an institutional road block to change. The sad thing is, if the code for that statistics collection were completely ripped out, it would relieve server CPU cycles and actually make the game more responsive.

TUXs's Avatar


TUXs
12.05.2012 , 03:03 PM | #85
Quote: Originally Posted by Jherad View Post
Yeah, not gonna happen in a million years (no offense intended to you). Community engagement is at an all time low - even forum moderation has gone to the dogs. A separate forum for a select few with close access to devs is asking a lot even for a game which hasn't pared down its staff to a skeleton crew. Which this one has.

All of this is just so much forum wankery (like the class feedback threads) without BW buy-in.
Oh, I completely agree. I've given up hope that they'll ever change...just offering ideas for us to debate, not them to read.

Quote: Originally Posted by Macroeconomics View Post
For 12 months I've been saying that ToR's ingame statistical collection system is revolutionary but the human (developer's) interpretation of those statistics is fatally flawed.
This is EXACTLY the problem!!!

Numbers only tell PART of the story and it's easy to skew them to get your desired results. Look no further than the referenced Dev Blog and you'll see where he says Operation participation increased with the release of TFB, and that that was their intention...only a moron would have thought otherwise. New loot, new gear, new content...it's not that Operations suddenly became better, it's that it was NEW!!!
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DarthBloodloss's Avatar


DarthBloodloss
12.05.2012 , 03:08 PM | #86
What a fail reply

They claim to love player feedback, yet there are 946 pages of topics in Merc PvP and there are maybe 3 dev replies, none of which have any information at all.
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Deewe's Avatar


Deewe
12.05.2012 , 03:33 PM | #87
Quote: Originally Posted by AllisonBerryman View Post
I**snip**

Also - thanks for the suggestions on a State of the Game or Q&A dedicated to PvP. I can't promise anything, but will bring up the feedback!
Hello,

First as general feedback on PvP, from a player perspective, it got worse in each iteration since 1.2.

For now the mains issue are:
  • Way too much stuns
  • Large disparate balance among the classes
  • Gear having a too huge impact on combat outcome
  • PvE changes impacting PvP
  • Impossibility for PUG players to do ranked WZ
  • Obliging pugs to fight againts pre-mades
  • Being forced to play specific WZ even if we don't like them
  • Lack of world PvP

More specifically I play both a Jug and a Gunnery Trooper in PvP.

For now I don't even log my Trooper anymore since you removed the knock back and reduced the range of the cryo grenade. Because, a gunnery Trooper was mostly fun in Hutball.
Now I can't anymore stop opponents nor knock them off either in defense or attack.
In the other WZ the Gunnery Trooper is mostly a static sheep.

Now the Jug while not perfect is still very fun.


Regarding the statistics, your data will tell you my Jugg always performs worse than the Tropper. Still with the Jugg I have a heavy impact on the team victory. However with the Trooper even being always in the top 3 DPSer I don't have such impact.

Thing is it's not because you deal lots of damage or die less than you have such an impact on a WZ outcome.

Let me take an example: with the Trooper I can do decent burst (but not enough to kill before being killed) and AoE damage, still at the end I'm dead and let's say the opponents are half alive. Thing is they'll have plenty time to heal up while I and team-mates re-spawn. However with my Jugg the damage is more directed, when I'm finished with an opponent or assisting a team mate it's game over for them huge difference.
=> Your stats won't tell you that.

With the Jugg I have more CC and can slow down and immobilize enemies a lot during a WZ.
The few seconds I delayed an opponent without even doing any damage, allowed me or my team mates to actually focus on less enemies and finish them off: big impact on say a caping or reaching a key point.
=> One again the data won't tell you that.


Then, if Hutball is such an issue with CC, you should put it apart from others WZ and either disable specific skills or have WZ effects changing them. Because the PvP now stands as having too often our keyboards being removed from ourselves. You have to admit it's very frustrating to keep watching your character being beaten like a rag doll.


So going forward, suggestion:
  1. Seriously reduce stuns and roots chains
  2. Give some beef to the mercs and gunery trooper and or mobility and use the feedback on the PvP classes topics you started.
  3. Allow players to actually choose to which WZ to queue and allow them again to re-queue automatically
  4. Start separating PvP skills from PvE ones
  5. Reduce drastically the impact of Gear in PvP (cf Rift)
  6. Allow players to opt out premades encounters
  7. Allow players to opt in for ranked WZ PUGSonly
  8. If possible add a teamspeak/ventrilo option for PvP (cf DDO)
  9. Add more rewards: XP, Credits and gear in PvP
  10. Allow players to jump into neutral cantias after WZ so they can socialize with their "enemies" (cf SWG)
  11. Let players toggle a skip cut-scene in WZ (gets boring to space skip them after the first 1000 time)
  12. Add mail boxes in the PvP mission zone in the space fleet if not better GTN too


One thing I would like to see is allow players to heal themselves more often.
Let me explain. It takes too long in PvP before being actually considered out of combat.
Thing is if a character is not actively being hit/shooted at then well, let him heal.
If the player was smart enough to get out of range/sight and isn't pursued actively then don't make him/her wait dozens of seconds to be able to start healing.
It's just frustrating to have to wait that long for the timer to finish.
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fungihoujo's Avatar


fungihoujo
12.05.2012 , 03:41 PM | #88
Quote: Originally Posted by AllisonBerryman View Post
Everyone, it's important to remember that the answers Jonathan gave are just a few examples of metrics our analytics team looks at for certain specific purposes. Class balancing overall is much more complicated than looking at a couple stats - these were just a few examples of things the analytics team looks at and it wasn't intended as a comprehensive deep-dive into PvP balancing. It also wasn't a statement that we feel everything is completely perfect. We're always looking at player feedback, testing, and much more to to adjust the classes, and will continue to do so.
Thank you for replying. However, the problem here is that we do not believe you.

Why do we not believe you? Well, here's some reasons.

1- Dark Infusion for sorcs was bugged to double cast, which I think we can all agree being able to get off two instant big heals back to back was a big problem. However- rather than seeing if a single DI proc would still be a problem- as intended after all- it was simply removed altogether and resurgence's buff was made all but useless.

Either a- that was a grossly heavy handed nerf that went way past what was necessary, or b- you couldn't fix the bug so you broke the ability entirely. Either way, that doesn't look good.

2- 1.2 came out before you could look at any pre-season RWZ, you had nothing but uncompetitive pvp to balance off of- yet 1.2 had the largest (un)balancing changes the game has seen- to multiple classes at that. So, the only assumption is either a- you based those nerfs off of the whines of people who didn't know what they were talking about, or b- you based it off of metrics in normals which are packed with bad players rather than waiting to get stats from the best players in RWZ.

Either way- again, it doesn't look good.

3- Stun bubble- after months of asking for buffs to damage, mobility, healing cast times, synergy of high tier talents, pure builds- what do we get? A hybrid buff to CC.

Either a- you didn't pay any attention whatsoever to what we were saying, or b- you knew we had problems and tossed in something you should have known you were going to end up nerfing anyway just to appease us shortly.

Either way- do I need to keep saying this?

And now- we know you guys are looking at a nerf to sorc stun bubble, removing the group utility of it, etc... which, ironically if you removed it from being a group stun bubble buff- that would actually be not only a nerf from now, but a nerf from launch when it was a mez that at least effected everyone.

Hilarious isn't it?!

And you want me to sit here and say 'oh geez golly gee whiz pops, they have metrics, they know what's swell and what ain't!'

**** that noise. Do you think we're really that stupid? It looks like you're ignoring stats from RWZ, you're ignoring what your playerbase is saying, you're interpretting your metrics wrong- and you've been doing so for months while this game dropped from 2 million to half a million subs, went from dozens of strong pvp queue servers to a few, and went f2p.

We are past the point where we're going to just believe what you say- you took a game where you were at one point 'surprised how popular pvp is' to a point where there is a fire raging and rather than bringing in fire fighters you're sitting back roasting marshmallows.

Elear's Avatar


Elear
12.05.2012 , 04:10 PM | #89
Quote: Originally Posted by AllisonBerryman View Post
Also - thanks for the suggestions on a State of the Game or Q&A dedicated to PvP.
Keep in mind that this thread here appeared because people don't want to accept your data revealed in that answer. So State of Game focused on PvP is quite likely to be met with same reaction(not saying Q&A is any better, since reaction is pretty much same, plus "omg they picked wrong questions").

Alizaro's Avatar


Alizaro
12.05.2012 , 04:12 PM | #90
Quote: Originally Posted by AllisonBerryman View Post
IceHawk - thank you for posting your feedback in such a constructive way. I don't have answers to all of your concerns right now, but I want you to know the community team is always working to escalate concerns and issues to the developers and get responses when we can (when we're sure of a course of action, have feedback requests, or have any updates to an issue). I mostly wanted to call out your post as a really model post for constructive feedback. We'll definitely continue working to bring more answers to questions and concerns.

Also - thanks for the suggestions on a State of the Game or Q&A dedicated to PvP. I can't promise anything, but will bring up the feedback!
The problem some of us have is we know these dev's aren't running their first rodeo. Some of us have played multiple mmo's over time and community feedback is a topic of concern in every one I've played. They've all had varying levels of feedback from the developers but from where we sit it looks like we've got to beg through you to hear anything. Any time you respond the post blows up and thrives but there are so many other threads that aren't addressed.

Any additional feedback at all is greatly appreciated and will help you keep subs.
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