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[XXX] Answers Questions Regarding Statistics

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
[XXX] Answers Questions Regarding Statistics
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SenseX's Avatar


SenseX
12.10.2012 , 06:52 AM | #121
Quote: Originally Posted by Macroeconomics View Post
I actually don't think that gear has a very big impact on toon performance in this game. Player skill is the biggest factor in determining how well a toon performs. The reason player skill is such a big factor in this game is that the PvP combat system is quite complex compared to other MMOs. That complexity means that new players are placed at the bottom of a lengthy learning curve - hence their severe underperformance. But there is a reason why people PERCEIVE that gear is a big factor. It's because better gear is highly correlated with higher skill. The high skill players are usually the ones who play a lot and thus have better gear. But that is correlation, not causation. So there is another statistics lesson for you....
Very well said and I couldn't agree more.

I think that's also one of the reasons why there are so many lolsmashers: It's a very easy spec to play in order to be a dps scoreboard hero. A good PT or Sorc have a much higher dps potential than a lolsmasher, but they also need a lot more player skill to be effective. They can't just jump in like an idiot and smash, e.g. a Sorc needs to kite people and position themselves in an intelligent way.

In any case:

- lolsmashers are a joke, I eat them for breakfast after they used their 1 big hit.
- Merc/Commandos are a joke, they're utterly useless in PvP (although they are very effective ranged dps in PvE)
- stunlocking Operatives are a bad joke... it's just ridiculous to look at them ****** you while you can do absolutely nothing with your CC breaker on cooldown.

just my 2cents.

Riggz's Avatar


Riggz
12.10.2012 , 08:29 AM | #122
Quote: Originally Posted by SenseX View Post
Very well said and I couldn't agree more.

I think that's also one of the reasons why there are so many lolsmashers: It's a very easy spec to play in order to be a dps scoreboard hero. A good PT or Sorc have a much higher dps potential than a lolsmasher, but they also need a lot more player skill to be effective. They can't just jump in like an idiot and smash, e.g. a Sorc needs to kite people and position themselves in an intelligent way.

In any case:

- lolsmashers are a joke, I eat them for breakfast after they used their 1 big hit.
- Merc/Commandos are a joke, they're utterly useless in PvP (although they are very effective ranged dps in PvE)
- stunlocking Operatives are a bad joke... it's just ridiculous to look at them ****** you while you can do absolutely nothing with your CC breaker on cooldown.

just my 2cents.
Nerf operatives

Duh
Urdnought Level 55 Operative
Urdonught Level 55 Scoundrel
<GRIM DETERMINATION>
<INFAMOUS>

Deewe's Avatar


Deewe
12.10.2012 , 08:11 PM | #123
Quote: Originally Posted by SenseX View Post
Very well said and I couldn't agree more.

I think that's also one of the reasons why there are so many lolsmashers: It's a very easy spec to play in order to be a dps scoreboard hero. A good PT or Sorc have a much higher dps potential than a lolsmasher, but they also need a lot more player skill to be effective. They can't just jump in like an idiot and smash, e.g. a Sorc needs to kite people and position themselves in an intelligent way.

In any case:

- lolsmashers are a joke, I eat them for breakfast after they used their 1 big hit.
- Merc/Commandos are a joke, they're utterly useless in PvP (although they are very effective ranged dps in PvE)
- stunlocking Operatives are a bad joke... it's just ridiculous to look at them ****** you while you can do absolutely nothing with your CC breaker on cooldown.

just my 2cents.
Best way to learn PvP is to play a Merc/Commando. Everything seems so easy after those

Gidomirf's Avatar


Gidomirf
12.19.2012 , 12:21 AM | #124
Quote: Originally Posted by Macroeconomics View Post
I actually don't think that gear has a very big impact on toon performance in this game. Player skill is the biggest factor in determining how well a toon performs. The reason player skill is such a big factor in this game is that the PvP combat system is quite complex compared to other MMOs. That complexity means that new players are placed at the bottom of a lengthy learning curve - hence their severe underperformance. But there is a reason why people PERCEIVE that gear is a big factor. It's because better gear is highly correlated with higher skill. The high skill players are usually the ones who play a lot and thus have better gear. But that is correlation, not causation. So there is another statistics lesson for you....
If gear truly had no effect, then why have pvp gear with statistics at all? I'd honestly rather have frivolous status benefits, like awesome costumes, or ways to customize my character than min/maxed numbers. The truth is that the numbers make the difference between needing 2-3 global cooldowns to crush a healer to death and 3-5 gcds. That curve shows the value inherent in the gear, and the only people who can afford to buy multiples of the highest tier gear are the "skilled" players. It takes no skill to faceroll people, and the game incentivizes singular builds that either completely disable the other player until they die, or kill one person in 3 hits every 15- 30 seconds. The crux is that each of these builds takes weeks if not months to prepare for their full benefit.

I agree that "noobs" tend to underperform due to lack of skill as well as lack of gear. The fact is that there are two mitigating factors, and skill is something that the game creators cannot correct. They can minimize the effect of gear however. I honestly believe the most effective solution would be to provide all players with a buff that is reduced by their valor rank. The noobs would be stronger, more effective, albeit less skilled, and the veterans wouldn't need this handicap since they are so competent, effective and concerned about fairness and equality. If everyone was on equal footing, pvp would be more challenging, rewarding and fun. But it isn't. Even though I am a veteran, as a pvp healer I'd rather receive an accross-the-board equalization of the gear I've worked hard for than continue to watch helplessly while I am unable to heal people dropping like flies to a better geared premade team with optimized class setups and plenty of smashers.

Seeing someone at full health die before I can even finish casting Dark Infusion in less than 2.5 seconds makes me wonder how anyone can claim skill made that happen. Maybe your perspective is slightly skewed by tunnel-vision in warzones, or organized open world pvp, or inflated ego. 1v1 duels show exactly how unbalanced the classes are, and gear exacerbates the problem making it much, much worse.

stephenalandavie's Avatar


stephenalandavie
12.19.2012 , 12:41 AM | #125
Quote: Originally Posted by Gidomirf View Post
If gear truly had no effect, then why have pvp gear with statistics at all? I'd honestly rather have frivolous status benefits, like awesome costumes, or ways to customize my character than min/maxed numbers. The truth is that the numbers make the difference between needing 2-3 global cooldowns to crush a healer to death and 3-5 gcds. That curve shows the value inherent in the gear, and the only people who can afford to buy multiples of the highest tier gear are the "skilled" players. It takes no skill to faceroll people, and the game incentivizes singular builds that either completely disable the other player until they die, or kill one person in 3 hits every 15- 30 seconds. The crux is that each of these builds takes weeks if not months to prepare for their full benefit.

I agree that "noobs" tend to underperform due to lack of skill as well as lack of gear. The fact is that there are two mitigating factors, and skill is something that the game creators cannot correct. They can minimize the effect of gear however. I honestly believe the most effective solution would be to provide all players with a buff that is reduced by their valor rank. The noobs would be stronger, more effective, albeit less skilled, and the veterans wouldn't need this handicap since they are so competent, effective and concerned about fairness and equality. If everyone was on equal footing, pvp would be more challenging, rewarding and fun. But it isn't. Even though I am a veteran, as a pvp healer I'd rather receive an accross-the-board equalization of the gear I've worked hard for than continue to watch helplessly while I am unable to heal people dropping like flies to a better geared premade team with optimized class setups and plenty of smashers.

Seeing someone at full health die before I can even finish casting Dark Infusion in less than 2.5 seconds makes me wonder how anyone can claim skill made that happen. Maybe your perspective is slightly skewed by tunnel-vision in warzones, or organized open world pvp, or inflated ego. 1v1 duels show exactly how unbalanced the classes are, and gear exacerbates the problem making it much, much worse.
They are making Expertise flat across the board, what more do you wish? there are games out there which are like you state, why not play them?. This will always be gear based pvp. you may aswell come to live with it or move on.

Gidomirf's Avatar


Gidomirf
12.19.2012 , 12:48 AM | #126
Quote: Originally Posted by SenseX View Post
Very well said and I couldn't agree more.

I think that's also one of the reasons why there are so many lolsmashers: It's a very easy spec to play in order to be a dps scoreboard hero. A good PT or Sorc have a much higher dps potential than a lolsmasher, but they also need a lot more player skill to be effective. They can't just jump in like an idiot and smash, e.g. a Sorc needs to kite people and position themselves in an intelligent way.

In any case:

- lolsmashers are a joke, I eat them for breakfast after they used their 1 big hit.
- Merc/Commandos are a joke, they're utterly useless in PvP (although they are very effective ranged dps in PvE)
- stunlocking Operatives are a bad joke... it's just ridiculous to look at them ****** you while you can do absolutely nothing with your CC breaker on cooldown.

just my 2cents.
I agree to your additions, not to your agreeing that gear is irrelevant. I think gear should be irrelevant, skill should be king. And while player skill is more important, it's more easy to perform well with fast computers and good connections. Arguing that player skill is the only factor in pvp neglects the fact that the player's time and money are also important, because the most skilled player in the world can't do well on a slow connection or a bad computer. In-game character gear is analogous to the time and money invested by the player. PVPers should be rewarded for performance and for time devoted to the game, but should it really provide a consistent advantage over new players when they already have gained more "skill" and experience? Is the advantage necessary?

There's not much point to playing classes in pvp that can't compete on equal footing. Without sufficient utility to escape from players or lock them, smashers are rock to everything's scissors. People complain about the Sorc/Sage stun-bubble and the quick resolve fade, but without it as an equalizing force against ridiculous smashers, they'd be king in pvp. They are already really annoying, but as long as I have can use obstacles to take advantage of line of sight targeting and I have my bubble to give me time to pillarhump them, I can elude a geared smasher for a long time and prevent him from capping an objective.

Still I wish our CC breaker would last for 2 seconds so we couldnt immediately be stunned after using it. Waiting for resolve to fill before popping makes it easier for operatives/smugglers to predict, vanish, rinse and repeat if we survived the first date with their offhand/fist (not sure if they still use suckerpunch).

Also, WTB more pillars that I can run around to make juggs/guadians and marauders/sentinels cry as they chase. I always go center in civil war because it has 4 pillars, two halls AND two levels that i can run around while bubbling my whole team and finally healing when the melee give up the chase to target my team.

Gidomirf's Avatar


Gidomirf
12.19.2012 , 01:00 AM | #127
Quote: Originally Posted by stephenalandavie View Post
They are making Expertise flat across the board, what more do you wish? there are games out there which are like you state, why not play them?. This will always be gear based pvp. you may aswell come to live with it or move on.
So you're saying stop qqing for warzones and play a different game, just because i have suggestions on ways to improve a game I enjoy? I have clearly enumerated several ways I would like pvp combat to be more balanced in this game, and I enjoy playing it with the friends I have acquired over the year that I have played it. When half the people state that pvp in swtor is completely based on skill, and you now state the reverse, I believe both are wrong. Skill, gear, class balance, steady internet connection, and a fast computer are all factors. Perhaps you might want to take some of your own advice and contribute to the discussion with suggestions for improvement rather than telling me to go away and making arbitrary predictions about the future. If you want a flame-war, I suggest looking elsewhere, like 4-chan.

Briggs_Knightly's Avatar


Briggs_Knightly
12.19.2012 , 12:25 PM | #128
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy View Post
KDR is probably the worst possible stat to use a evidence of performance in PvP.

a Healer gets credit for kills made by those that they have healed; ive healed wzs where i end up with 50 kills and 0 damage done...

...the point is that metrics, and statistics in general, can say whatever you want them to say. Mark Twain has a great quote "There are 3 kinds of lies. Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics"
This is the PRIMARY reason that the DPS versions of the 3 heal classes sux.
Healers rarely die in a good group and get credit for a bunch of deaths.
Then the DPS guys do a lot of worthless splash damage so they look very effective.

Only real PVP players can tell that these are not welcome in a rated group (because they sux).
EA/BW rely on worthless data to justify their class balancing problems and THEY WILL NEVER CHANGE.
"Stupid is as stupid does"
/\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/\_
EA/BW: Please FIRE all who worked on PVP for incompetence. Thx.
50-Merc 50-Op 50-VG 40-GunS 50-Jug 50-Shadow 40-Sent 40-Sorc
OK, I have given up on EA/BW! Any suggestions for my next game?

Gidomirf's Avatar


Gidomirf
12.19.2012 , 06:41 PM | #129
Quote: Originally Posted by Briggs_Knightly View Post
EA/BW rely on worthless data to justify their class balancing problems and THEY WILL NEVER CHANGE.
"Stupid is as stupid does"
We don't know how their metrics work, but well performing teams have a non-quantifiable ability to work together well while using VoIP programs. It's easy to set up an algorithm to identify healers as outliers, but any formula that ignores or marginalizes healers is flawed. It's just as easy to identify splashers by how few objective points they have, but focusing on the statistics of the best players will also provide a skewed result.

Perhaps they have a way to mine useful data, but I'm pretty sure the state of pvp in SWtOR is only observable through actual play on live servers. The really interesting thing is that this act of interaction in pvp by non-vets (gamedevs or not) is an incredibly unrewarding experience full of players calling them noobs when they inevitably make mistakes. It's an interesting manifestation of particle physics where the act of observation changes the environment.

I really hope they do change. If they would hire/sponsor high-performing vets that are able to work well with their devteam, they might be able to glean a lot of useful insight in ways they could improve pvp-combat. What we need is a voice in upcoming pvp changes/improvements. Including new warzones on the PTR isn't enough to draw most players away from the live servers due to the exorbitant grindfest currently implemented to only wait for noone to queue up against them or with them. If they want feedback on pvp-matters, there needs to be a lure to draw pvpers to the ptr where their warzone commendations earned won't transfer. If we could load one of our current characters on the live server to the ptr, I think a lot more people would participate and provide better feedback before patches go live. Bioware/EA needs to maintain a good report with their end-game subscribers if they want to retain any mmorpg market saturation.