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[XXX] Answers Questions Regarding Statistics

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
[XXX] Answers Questions Regarding Statistics
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fungihoujo's Avatar


fungihoujo
12.05.2012 , 07:52 PM | #101
Quote: Originally Posted by Wainamoinen View Post
Please don't appoint yourself spokesman for the community. Less of the "we".
Sorry- ok, so you and your buddy below you believe that mercenaries are in a good place, and that fixing bugs should be done by removing abilities and talents entirely rather than fixing the bug, and that making large balancing changes without any metrics on competitive play whatsoever is a great way to run pvp- I didn't mean to include folks like you in my post, and I apologize for it.

DarthBloodloss's Avatar


DarthBloodloss
12.05.2012 , 08:10 PM | #102
Quote: Originally Posted by AllisonBerryman View Post
IceHawk - thank you for posting your feedback in such a constructive way. I don't have answers to all of your concerns right now, but I want you to know the community team is always working to escalate concerns and issues to the developers and get responses when we can (when we're sure of a course of action, have feedback requests, or have any updates to an issue). I mostly wanted to call out your post as a really model post for constructive feedback. We'll definitely continue working to bring more answers to questions and concerns.

Also - thanks for the suggestions on a State of the Game or Q&A dedicated to PvP. I can't promise anything, but will bring up the feedback!
They just look worse and worse every time they reply.

" I mostly wanted to call out your post as a really model post for constructive feedback."

There have been a million other suggestions and posts about PvP topics. What is so special about this one post that its such a great example? What about the other 719 posts stating that we get very little info. What about the tons of posts suggesting ideas for various class balancing?

It feels like a slap in the face! Were you not aware of posts similar to this before today?? These have been there for months and months and months!!! You should have said something more like "We have been reading your suggestions regarding PvP, sorry we havent responded yet. we will start a thread about this in the future, etc" - not just "oh wow nice post, thanks!"
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TheEdgeOfMadness's Avatar


TheEdgeOfMadness
12.05.2012 , 09:43 PM | #103
Quote: Originally Posted by Nightkin View Post
So...i will start with a link to the QA in question- http://www.darthhater.com/articles/s...ions-regarding


In particular in want to highlight the following; "We pay very close attention to both engagement and balance in PvP. Some things we examine are player kill to death ratios and average rewards gained for every class to make sure that balance is maintained across the board.

And ; Balance-wise, kill/death ratios are well-balanced, with all Advanced Classes having kill/death ratios very close to each other.

I guess that means that dps sorc/sage and dps merc/trooper is perfectly fine? What about Shieldtech PTs? According to these metrics, "kill/death ratios are well-balanced" across all AC...

For real?! I simply cannot comprehend how this could possibly be true when you have some classes who clearly have great difficulties to perform on a adequate level. Hell, even i am getting interested in rolling something like a shadow these days...
I know right. I couldn't believe it when I read this. The imbalances for DPS Sorcs/Sages and Mandos/Mercs are ridiculous. Especially when compared to lolsmashers.

Dyvim's Avatar


Dyvim
12.05.2012 , 10:05 PM | #104
Quote: Originally Posted by AllisonBerryman View Post
Everyone, it's important to remember that the answers Jonathan gave are just a few examples of metrics our analytics team looks at for certain specific purposes. Class balancing overall is much more complicated than looking at a couple stats - these were just a few examples of things the analytics team looks at and it wasn't intended as a comprehensive deep-dive into PvP balancing. It also wasn't a statement that we feel everything is completely perfect. We're always looking at player feedback, testing, and much more to to adjust the classes, and will continue to do so.
The problem is you cheated out of the gate with mirroring classes. There are only 8 classes in the game, or 8 ACs, not even 8 completely separate classes. So any cry of "poor, poor us, its hard to balance classes after years and 10s of millions in development expense" really is laughable. You did NOTHING new with the classes. There is no innovation. Trinity with melee and ranged. VERY typical.

PvP play in this game has a LEGION of problems. First, there is no rewal difference amongst server types, because there IS NO OPEN WORLD pvp system. No rewards. Nothing. Then there is no endgame planets since Ilum was deprecated/defecated apparently never to return. Then you force pugs on people for the majority of their pvp experience in WZs, where they cant even pick the WZ. So much epic fail. Then you have half implemented ranked WZs where the class imbalances mentioned in this thread REALLY stick out.

Statistics can lead people astray as fast as anecdotes. In fact, seeing the shape of pvp, and hearing BW fall back on statistics as some feeble defense makes me think EXACTLY that has happened. Personally, I would just be impressed if you could figure out CC in this game is ridiculous, as is the resolve timer. CC in this game is completely OUT of control.
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Gidomirf's Avatar


Gidomirf
12.06.2012 , 04:54 AM | #105
Quote: Originally Posted by AllisonBerryman View Post
Everyone, it's important to remember that the answers Jonathan gave are just a few examples of metrics our analytics team looks at for certain specific purposes. Class balancing overall is much more complicated than looking at a couple stats - these were just a few examples of things the analytics team looks at and it wasn't intended as a comprehensive deep-dive into PvP balancing. It also wasn't a statement that we feel everything is completely perfect. We're always looking at player feedback, testing, and much more to to adjust the classes, and will continue to do so.
I can understand that diving into balancing the classes is a giant chore and task because you are limited to making minor changes in order to avoid unbalancing the PvE part of the game when you are looking to fix the PvP. That said, statistics and analytics without a discerning context are deceptive if not worthless.


Kill/Death Ratio:
This doesn't apply to healers. Also, a dps with a pocket healer is going to work better than another dps. When teams are coordinated they get more kills to their deaths. Sometimes, when a Pick Up Group is going up against a premade, one team might have 20 kills for every death. Sometimes a PUG might end up with 5 healers and be unable to kill any of the other team's 2heals-1tank-5dps at all. Abstracting the total ratio for every class when teamwork, team composition, and gear have a larger effect than the native classes is silly.

If you want a good litmus test on which classes die more often, look at Ranked Warzone Matches between evenly matched premades. Even then, the better guilds that form these premades all have VERY stringent requirements on which classes and specs they will field, and/or will accept into their guild. The class/specs that they universally don't take should be buffed/adjusted for PVP if you want to make each class viable with choices for tank/dps or heal/dps.


Field Talent Respecialization:
This needs to be disabled while in warzones. Letting people respec in the warzone makes the Pit an easy win for premades against PUGs. If the goal is fairness, this shouldnt be the case. If the goal is to reward ingenuity and planning, leave it in even though it is unfair. I love playing in the Pit, it's my favorite warzone, But having my team stomped simply because im facing a premade or vice versa is never as fun as an even match.


Gear scaling:
I understand that gear grind is a commonplace strategy to encourage players to take time working on a goal for improving their characters. However the discrepancy between characters that are fully geared and new 50s is so large that a recruit can get two-shot by a decked out Marauder. 6-8k crits against a player with 14k health will encourage the new player to quit, not spend 3 months getting smashed while slowly gearing up to the same level. The well geared players will get angry if you make it easier for others to catch up because they worked hard for their advantage, and the undergeared players will refuse to play an unfair game otherwise.

All in all, the scale of the gear's affect on damage needs to be reduced. Why bother having healers at all if characters will die before I can cast 1 big heal on them? Warzones are getting closer to a confused FPS without enough cover. Healers can be completely shut down by 1 person damaging them and interrupting their heals, or if the other team is coordinated they can focus fire down any target getting healed because heals are nowhere close to the damage output.

Instead of each set requiring months to acquire, providing the players who accomplish it quickly with bonuses like making them more customizable or shiny or giving them a title will ease their frustration when the undergeared players catch up statwise.


Randomness:
A team randomly full of healers is going to lose. A team randomly with two sage/sorc healers will lose against one with a sage/sorc and different class healer when both teams are equally skilled and geared due to class synergy. Randomness in PvPing through PUGs causes teams to lose because the class balance of the team is such a huge factor in success.

PUGs should randomly add players to the teams that are built by factoring gear-level and spec. That way, teams won't end up with 4+ healers, and it won't be Recruits vs. War Heroes.

Bubble spec sorcs/sages are hated because of the bubble stun, but their ability to heal is diminished as soon as another sorc/sage is on the same team putting up bubbles and providing the debuff that prevents the bubblesorc from applying a new one for 17 seconds. And if the debuff were to only apply to the sorc who cast it, a full sorc team could have 8 bubbles on each player every 17 seconds. I don't know of a good way to fix this, but its a great example why solo-queueing and ending up on a team with 3 other sorc healers is really annoying for me.


I really enjoy PvPing in SWtOR, it's why I have been subscribing since launch. Unfortunately, as people get smashed more and more, it's making my desire to continue being a PvP healer die. Be nice to healers plz. We get focused and killed first, and blamed for lack of healing simultaneously. While it's inflammatory to say this, I truly believe healing is harder to do than dps in PvP, and unless some of the escalating problems in SWtOR's PvP are addressed, healers will continue to quit. Why bother trying to heal people when they die within 2-3 global cooldowns? Anyway, thats my QQ

Ycoga's Avatar


Ycoga
12.06.2012 , 05:13 AM | #106
Quote: Originally Posted by UGLYMRJ View Post
2. Using K/D ratios in a game where all you have to do is breathe the same air to get credit for a kill... that's a bad idea. Especially for instance a sorc/sage. A good sorc/sage will nearly always have the most kills (bubbles, off healing and especially DOTS). A sorc/sage is involved with almost every kill in one way or another.
This is true - I got 56 kills in a WZ last night using AOE and bubble... died 6 times and got 330k dmg. There was a jugg that died 6 times but did 600k dmg. The jugg got 40 or so kills...

If kill/death ratio is so important, make it a stat that's visible and relevant for ranking or RWZ.
'Pre-2.0 PvP... The gear gap was too big and some players became non-contributors quickly because of the gear gap. It wasn’t fun for the majority of players' - Alex Modny

Wainamoinen's Avatar


Wainamoinen
12.06.2012 , 05:26 AM | #107
Quote: Originally Posted by fungihoujo View Post
Sorry- ok, so you and your buddy below you believe that mercenaries are in a good place, and that fixing bugs should be done by removing abilities and talents entirely rather than fixing the bug, and that making large balancing changes without any metrics on competitive play whatsoever is a great way to run pvp- I didn't mean to include folks like you in my post, and I apologize for it.
You're not stupid and I agree with some of your points, like the sadness of Mercs - but that wasn't actually part of your post. And I disagree with others - complaining about losing your stunbubble, not something that's going to cause tears among 95% of PvPers (yes, I pulled that number out of the air). Which means you do not speak for all of us, like it or not.

Representing your personal bugbears as being the view of the whole PvP community is what I principally object to. Presenting wild assumptions, accusations and ranting tone as my views aren't great either.

Try and rein yourself back to saying "I think" instead of "we" where it's your personal view, instead of appointing yourself Voice of the Forum, and it's fine. If you could hold back on the bug-eyed fury when a constructive discussion may be possible, that would also be good. Maybe you couldn't resist the chance to vent at a game employee when one showed themselves, I don't know. But it wasn't my vent, so please don't present it as such.
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Paokzu's Avatar


Paokzu
12.06.2012 , 06:03 AM | #108
I'm all for balancing PvP, however BW please do it in a way that doesn't have any impact at all on PvE. Make these alterations take place in the WZs themselves! The more balancing that's done erodes the individuality of each class. As it stands these days classes don't differ very much from one to the next. This is evident in SWTOR but even more obvious in GW2, I really don't like that games have gone this route but I expect the player base is mostly to blame. It used to be if you favored one classes abilities over your own, you'd have to go and create a character of said class to experience their specific play flavor, but these days everyone wants to be able to do what every other class can do and whine about it until it's changed or a bland precedent is set. But since we can't un-ring that bell lets at least try to keep things as interesting as possible.
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fungihoujo's Avatar


fungihoujo
12.06.2012 , 07:00 AM | #109
Quote: Originally Posted by Wainamoinen View Post
You're not stupid and I agree with some of your points, like the sadness of Mercs - but that wasn't actually part of your post. And I disagree with others - complaining about losing your stunbubble, not something that's going to cause tears among 95% of PvPers (yes, I pulled that number out of the air). Which means you do not speak for all of us, like it or not.

Representing your personal bugbears as being the view of the whole PvP community is what I principally object to. Presenting wild assumptions, accusations and ranting tone as my views aren't great either.

Try and rein yourself back to saying "I think" instead of "we" where it's your personal view, instead of appointing yourself Voice of the Forum, and it's fine. If you could hold back on the bug-eyed fury when a constructive discussion may be possible, that would also be good. Maybe you couldn't resist the chance to vent at a game employee when one showed themselves, I don't know. But it wasn't my vent, so please don't present it as such.
When I say 'we' I do not necessarily mean everyone- I was referring to all the operatives, mercs and sorcs who have spent the last 8 months trying to figure out why BW hit us so hard with the nerf stick, then ignored as all three classes ended up with pretty much zero representation for dps in RWZ.

I don't need to mean you when I say we- I can say we and be referring to the many, many people who have been saying exactly what I've paraphrased and more.

Furthermore- I wasn't complaining about stun bubble being nerfed. I was pointing out that they saw sorcs were in trouble, ignored what we were asking for and gave us CC (stun bubble) even though more stuns wasn't what we were asking for- and now they're talking about reducing it to self target when even before the stun bubble it was a mez bubble that you could put on your whole team- meaning it is indeed a nerf from where it once was.

How exactly is it a wild assumption for me to say they made huge balancing changes in 1.2 without metrics on RWZ when that is a fact? Or wild assumption to say of all the things sorcs were asking for- the stun bubble wasn't it when if you look at old sorc threads? Or wild assumption to say that getting an instant proc heal removed is a big nerf to healer mobility and survivability?

I am not the only one who thinks that putting so many drastic changes in a single patch, one without any RWZ data and thus no real competitive look at class balance- was a terrible idea and is always a terrible idea.

They're still not giving us the numbers, or balancing changes that show their numbers match our perceptions. It feels like they've been balancing some classes based on what the people who play them want- much to their glee. While balancing others based on what people playing against them want- much to their horror. So, what exactly is there to give us faith in their pvp balance?

The only metrics we do have readily available are the queue times, number of servers and drop in subs- none of them are painting a pretty picture for this game's pvp- so forgive me if I call ******** when BW is still trying to downplay the state of this game's pvp.

islander's Avatar


islander
12.06.2012 , 08:17 AM | #110
Quote: Originally Posted by Wainamoinen View Post
Please don't appoint yourself spokesman for the community. Less of the "we".
He's right though. These devs have no more pulse on actual pvp now then they did back in 1.1.
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