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How to fix Boss skipping


Eurynamous's Avatar


Eurynamous
11.28.2012 , 03:03 PM | #31
Giving BH Comms, Molecular Stabilizers or any other raid quality crafting material... That just cheapens the raids and makes them less worth running because you can farm your mats and have all of the ilvl 63 mods, enhancements, hilts and armoring made for you. This is not what you do at all, and I am sure that BioWare would agree with me on that one.

The answer is to give value to the bonus quest series in flashpoints. A set reward in credits is a good one, as in something similar to dailies. For completing the entire bonus series in a FP, players should receive an additional 11k credits and 3 daily tokens. There is always a use for daily tokens, especially for getting those relics, legacy gear and mounts.

It keeps the game flow proper, adds incentive to complete the bonus series and not make things all a speed run but still leaves the option for skipping by group decision.
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Helig's Avatar


Helig
11.28.2012 , 03:06 PM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
People that run Ops have a functional monopoly on the *use* of said mats (since the only way to get the 63 grade schematics is to RE it) and, unless you didn't actually fully read my first post of this threat wherein I described all of the ways to get stabs, you'd see that it's not simply Ops that provide you with them. You can get them by doing Space Missions or by REing Black Hole gear. It's arguably more more time efficient and provides you with more over the course of a week to do your Space Missions every day, and that is *explicitly* solo content.
The rate at which they are gained outside raids is not even comparable. And yes, thank you for addressing the accessibility of grade 63 crafting schematics. Crafting is an integral part of the economy, and grade 63 items are the most sought-after. Non-raiding crafters should have the same access level, because, frankly, crafting, being a part of economy, is an entirely separate pillar of an MMO.

And no, not only raiders need those things. They are used to optimize PvP gear, and it would be rather unbelievable if non-raiding PvE players, despite not *needing* this stuff for their content (but as you yourself said, you don't need that for entry-level raids anyway, yet it drops there), didn't want them. Character progression is important, no matter the gaming environment.
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I'd also have to wonder how you define "select minority" as "people that can do TfB and/or EC". It's not really a select minority. There are pugs going pretty much every night (at least on my server) doing SM TfB and EC, both of which provide Molecular Stabilizers, not to mention that the gear requirement to do TfB and EC are low enough (full Columi, which is on par with HM KP/EV) and the mechanics themselves have largely been nerfed sufficiently (in the case of EC) that the only way you *can't* do EC or TfB is if you *won't* do EC or TfB.
Unfortunately I do not have access to Bioware metrics, so I can't argue this point. However, I read MMO research (once again, not useful without precise metrics), which indicates that no matter how accessible raid content is, the amount of people people attending it varies from 5 to 20%. PvPers, altoholics, traders/crafters, casuals and semi-casuals who can't afford to play for more than 1-1.5 hours straight, or people who just dislike the raiding playstyle. It's a lot of players.

I'm a dedicated crafter and PvPer. I also progress-raid. Or rather used to progress-raid because I lost all taste for it. It's just not fun anymore. Been progress-raiding throughout EQ2 and WoW (vanilla to WOTLK), and SWToR doesn't really offer anything new. Now I just run with my guild's alt groups to see content and buy the reagents I need from the guildbank at a significant discount.

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I'm not even sure I can understand your justification in saying that everyone should have equal access to all mats at all times. There *should* be some advantages to actually doing end game content (re: better gear). By providing Molecular Stabilizers in content that is, functionally, entry level end game content (since you don't even have to gear up to get into HM FPs any more), you're pretty much saying that doing *any* content while at 50 should provide you with access to the absolute best gear available, which simply makes no sense (unless you're the type of person that simply expects to be handed the best gear rather than just the gear needed to actually begin progression).
Not precisely what I meant. I meant that there should be more equally viable sources.

Yes, there should be advantages of "actually doing" endgame content. But who said that only raids qualify for that "endgame content"?

And no, I don't expect to be "handed the best gear". I expect to put effort into it. But I expect that my effort is recognized outside the tunnelvisioned "raids are the only true endgame" design which implies that all critical crafting is tied to raids, thus economy is heavily influenced by them, as well.
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Omophorus's Avatar


Omophorus
11.28.2012 , 05:27 PM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by Helig View Post
The rate at which they are gained outside raids is not even comparable. And yes, thank you for addressing the accessibility of grade 63 crafting schematics. Crafting is an integral part of the economy, and grade 63 items are the most sought-after. Non-raiding crafters should have the same access level, because, frankly, crafting, being a part of economy, is an entirely separate pillar of an MMO.

And no, not only raiders need those things. They are used to optimize PvP gear, and it would be rather unbelievable if non-raiding PvE players, despite not *needing* this stuff for their content (but as you yourself said, you don't need that for entry-level raids anyway, yet it drops there), didn't want them. Character progression is important, no matter the gaming environment.
This reeks of a sense of entitlement.

There has to be a reason to raid. BiS gear has always been, and should be, that reason. I would actually prefer if it weren't craftable at all (though with how awfully slow ilvl 63 gear is metered out, the alternative would stink too), but barring that, it's entirely reasonable that one of the rewards of raiding is the ability to get BiS schematics.

And besides, this game has THE most chimp-simple crafting implementation in the history of MMO-dom, so catering to crafters shouldn't even rate a 0 on a scale of 1-10. Anyone can be a crafter with little time or effort expended.

The entirely reasonable reward of being a "hardcore" crafter is the credit base so doing provides. Credits make a lot of things happen in this game, and being in the top ~5% in terms of personal worth is a just reward in its own right.

And heck, open sales of 61/63 items are limited thanks to the buy-insert-extract-RE bug that BioWare refuses to address (and further deflates any sense of progression, either for crafters or for raiders). You have the ability now, if you are unscrupulous and rich, to learn any schematic that you want. Of course, anyone capable of enabling you to do that will catch on quick and shut you down, but that's their right.

toyfanatic's Avatar


toyfanatic
11.28.2012 , 06:41 PM | #34
I always enjoy kitru's explanations even if I don't always agree.
In this case I agree with Kitru. There has to be a golden carrot to get people to use the group finder. So they rework the rewards for OPS and FP- no big deal. To get the overgeared people to run the daily HM there has to be a decent reward for them to even think of que'ing. The gear in this game used to be "haves" versus the "have nots"- then the Dev's introduced group finder and made it very generous. Before group finder you had to be on a guilds hardcore raiding team to get gear. Do the daily HM FP and get 5black hole coms. Many people bought their way into almost BiS gear with out ever having to raid. They had the gear but no ability as a raider.
The hard core raiders decided that fleshing out a optimized BiS gear with daily BH coms was a good idea. So the speed runs through FP took root.
Thats what has happened. But lets look at the future? In 1.6 the entitlement program is in full swing. Tionese become a free 50 pve set. Pvp already has MK-2 recruit , but they will take away the grind to war hero. What that means is people might stop doing HM's all together. A fresh level 50 who spent a little time pvping will have a war hero main hand and mix of MK-2 and Tionese gear . More than ready to do SM ops and get rakata. I realize only 2 of the SM ops drop rakata - but they are set for columi geared players. MK-2 recruit is rated at 132. So no more skipping bosses, because no one will run HM FP's.
The Dev's don't see a issue with people skippig bosses for rewards that are obsolite, so why should we?
The Dev's can't make make any better rewards program than they have already instituted. The players who have played since beta, there are still some of us here. We only did the HM's for the BH coms. We might have taken the odd piece of gear from the run to gift a alt or a comp. But the main drive was for the coms.
I beleive I made my arguement on how to fix skipping bosses in HM's FP, in 3-5 weeks no one will be running them due to the new changes in free gear for 1.6

Helig's Avatar


Helig
11.29.2012 , 12:48 AM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by Omophorus View Post
This reeks of a sense of entitlement.

There has to be a reason to raid. BiS gear has always been, and should be, that reason. I would actually prefer if it weren't craftable at all (though with how awfully slow ilvl 63 gear is metered out, the alternative would stink too), but barring that, it's entirely reasonable that one of the rewards of raiding is the ability to get BiS schematics.
I thought people raided "for fun" and "to hone their cooperation skills", and gear was supposed to be a means to an end, like in our time, no?

Regardless, the reverse is true as well. Many vocal raiders seem to be very hung-up on the exclusivity of the things that raiding provides, while in reality, their effort isn't really worth more than the effort of others - not with ToR raids. Say it with me. En-ti-tle-ment.

Let 'em get the best gear, I say. Let'em swim in it. But crafting is an entirely different matter. Should those schematics should be trainer-bought? Force forbid. Give us proper alternative progression paths. Crafting dailies, crafting orders, long RE chains, etc, etc.

Quote:
The entirely reasonable reward of being a "hardcore" crafter is the credit base so doing provides. Credits make a lot of things happen in this game, and being in the top ~5% in terms of personal worth is a just reward in its own right.

And heck, open sales of 61/63 items are limited thanks to the buy-insert-extract-RE bug that BioWare refuses to address (and further deflates any sense of progression, either for crafters or for raiders). You have the ability now, if you are unscrupulous and rich, to learn any schematic that you want. Of course, anyone capable of enabling you to do that will catch on quick and shut you down, but that's their right.
True enough, I suppose. But SWToR dosn't have a sufficiently player-driven economy for this approach to access to be justified. It doesn't really compare to SWG, or Eve.

It's not really the problem of accessibility, but rather a problem of ideology. Economy should be a separate living, breathing layer of the game. Right now, it's merely a husk on life support with tubes labelled "RAIDS", "CARTEL MARKET" and "CRAFTING" sticking out of it.
"I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!" - Pinkamena Diane Pie

Ephesia's Avatar


Ephesia
11.29.2012 , 08:08 AM | #36
Any idea that makes 63 content more available to any non raiding players is a slap in the face to raiders and those who actually work and will use the gear they earn. The current system is entirely proper and just. Boss skipping too isn't a weird anomaly as the best any FP boss drops is a Columi piece which is obtainable from all last bosses which have to be killed as well as SM Ops where they can be obtained very easily. This discussion is pointless and moot.
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bravotwentysev's Avatar


bravotwentysev
11.29.2012 , 09:32 AM | #37
Working as intended.

If longterm players were forced to kill everything alot would stop doing it. Adding high end gear isnt needed as it degrades the other zones that these items come from. Even at a 6% chance of a high end piece drop I still bypass it. People still have to roll against others and you know all would need on a 200k item that sells fast.

As many said if you want to kill all than make a group and go at it. Its a no win situation for both player base. Skip to end and the new player miss's loot. Kill everything and its to time consuming, death which equal repair bills as we know some of those mini boss's are tuffer than the end boss for some.

Some of those players should be happy as most of the players will greed or out right pass on the end loot giving those1-2 players in the group a better chance at it on need.

I ask up front speed run or full run. I will say sometimes when full kill run is said I see allot of people leave group. Sometimes I dont blame them.
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ChicagoBearsFan's Avatar


ChicagoBearsFan
11.29.2012 , 10:39 AM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by Radzkie View Post
The best "solution" to boss skipping is asking your team if they will do them. Honestly, I have never seen a PUG refuse a request. If they do say no, and you really care about the crap drops from those bosses, you can /leave the group and find another. I am sure that no one will really care if they need to wait a few minutes for another person...
Exactly right! The game is not "broke" and in need of fixing in this regard. Some people need to start communicating more and others need to stop being poop chutes.
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Larry_Dallas's Avatar


Larry_Dallas
11.29.2012 , 02:14 PM | #39
Quote: Originally Posted by Helig View Post
I thought people raided "for fun" and "to hone their cooperation skills", and gear was supposed to be a means to an end, like in our time, no?

Regardless, the reverse is true as well. Many vocal raiders seem to be very hung-up on the exclusivity of the things that raiding provides, while in reality, their effort isn't really worth more than the effort of others - not with ToR raids. Say it with me. En-ti-tle-ment.

Let 'em get the best gear, I say. Let'em swim in it. But crafting is an entirely different matter. Should those schematics should be trainer-bought? Force forbid. Give us proper alternative progression paths. Crafting dailies, crafting orders, long RE chains, etc, etc.


True enough, I suppose. But SWToR dosn't have a sufficiently player-driven economy for this approach to access to be justified. It doesn't really compare to SWG, or Eve.

It's not really the problem of accessibility, but rather a problem of ideology. Economy should be a separate living, breathing layer of the game. Right now, it's merely a husk on life support with tubes labelled "RAIDS", "CARTEL MARKET" and "CRAFTING" sticking out of it.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Self-described hard-core raiders can't have it both ways. You either raid to get gear or raid for a sense of accomplishment and can tell others they shouldn't care about the drops. You can't claim both.

Myself, I like new gear, but raid for progression. It doesn't matter to me if I win the roll for a hazmat earpiece or buy it from some crafter a few days before or after downing the boss.

The problem with increasing drops that give access to stabilizers (or even tons of money), isn't that it gives access to better gear, it's that it modifies the economy in such a way that it damages the fun the crafters are having. That's an entire playstyle that gets disrupted into nothingness if stabs turn into biometrics.

And yeah, it would be nice if crafters had more methods than either "raiding" or "buying and reverse engineering stuff that others have raided"

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
11.29.2012 , 02:42 PM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by Larry_Dallas View Post
And yeah, it would be nice if crafters had more methods than either "raiding" or "buying and reverse engineering stuff that others have raided"
You forgot "Space Missions" (which is actually getting more efficient in 1.6 with the addition of the 6 additional Heroic Space Missions that'll provide 20 comms each day for a total possible 220 comms/day, which means ~2 stabs per day per character entirely through solo play).
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