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Kaggath Series: Darth Traya vs Revan

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Series: Darth Traya vs Revan

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.27.2012 , 06:05 PM | #61
Quote: Originally Posted by Rayla_Felana View Post
'Unseen, Unheard' Star Wars Tales 24




Actually the battle is listed as a stalemate until the Ravager, the Triumvirate's capital ship is destroyed along with the commander Darth Nihilus, this sends the fleet into disarray.

Oh and just to clear something up, there were three powerbases in the Triumvirate: Sion's cult of assassins, Nihilus' fleet which was a vast collection of ships that joined the Sith at Malachor following the war, which also contained Interdictor class warships and the large prototype of the Centurion class, with random Sith and assassins, along with warbeasts making up the bulk of his forces, then Traya's powerbase which is made up of all remaining Sith and Dark Jedi, a lot of them.
Right, but Revan commanded an army significantly bigger/better then the Republic did during the Battle of Telos. Keep that in mind. The Republic was WAY better off before the Jedi Civil War. Remember: Revan's powerbase comes from the early Mandalorian War. These are two VERY different Republics we're talking about here....

BlazingShadow's Avatar


BlazingShadow
11.27.2012 , 06:06 PM | #62
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
1.) Right, sorry, I got that now. I made assumptions, sorry. Unfortunately, as I said, Revan's fleet would easily destroy Traya's. We've actually seen the Republic defeat it before, at Telos.

2.) I have yet to see how Revan is to be affected by these assassins. He is very strong willed himself, and particulary immune to the effects of fear (as per Wookieepedia). How do thses assassins work? If it's a battle of willpoweer, Revan will win every time.
P.S. Let me rephrase: psychological impacts don't loose wars.

3.) What are those two Lord's powerbases? I was under the impression that they're one and the same... Sion didn't have any troops, and Nihlius's fleet belonged to Traya... Revan still has far more resources and allies.

4.) While deception, betrayal, and stealth are nice, they won't win a war against an army like the Republic's. If Traya had a fleet that could stand up to Revan's, then she might have an advantage. But trying to counter a forward assault with an underhand stragegy won't turn out well if you have no troops to buy time.

5.) I still think Revan's willpower would win over assassins. As for Traya, She loved the Exile. I'm sure she loved Revan too. Traya hestitated long enough to have a conversation with Meetra, I'm sure she would want to talk to Revan before she tried to kill/sever him too.
You are stating what you think, which is not the same as what is.

1) It took Meetra Surik, Mandalore, Visas Marr, the Republic, Onderon, and the Mandalorians to destroy the Ravager and defeat the Sith at Telos. Napoleon was ultimately defeated-twice-is he not still regarded as one of the greatest military minds of all time? You don't have a valid point to make here, you simply "feel" a certain way about it. You've never seen Revan's fleet defeated before? Oh, goodness. If not seeing something were the same as knowing something was not... It's like saying "I've never seen the Patriots lose this season, so surely they're not going to lose!"

2) Ignorance. The assassins work by feeding off their oponent's strength. It is not a battle of willpower, it is a matching of power. The assassins are similar to Darth Nihilus because of their ability to feed off of the force. They become stronger when their prey is stronger in the force. That results in the death of every jedi under Revan's command and the strengthening of Traya's forces.
P.S. Larger armies don't win wars either. Look at conflicts across the world today for proof of that.

3) It was a reiteration of my previous point to answer your statement. Everyone under Sion's and Nihilus' control is under Traya's control for this Kaggath. That means a fleet of warships, Sith military, the Ravager, Sith Assassins that feed off the force, and the scores of Sith Lords, Marauders, Apprentices and Masters that also followed the SIth Triumverate. At any rate, you don't win a conflict with numbers alone. Cunning and strategy account for far more than Revan's troops, and Revan is not in a position to be nearly as cunning, ruthless, or effective as Traya's forces.

4) She does have troops, she does have a fleet, but the entire point is that she needs no fleet in order to destroy Revan. The loss of the Harbinger proves that. No, you don't need a decoy ship to pull it off, you could hypothetically plant groups of assassins everywhere across the galaxy where Revan's forces travel, just sneak them on all of his ships and, like a cancer, become quite malign and rip Revan's power base from under him. Revan cannot do the same.

5) Willpower has nothing to do with it, emotion has nothing to do with it because this is a hypothetical battle. Don't get me wrong, you can "say" Traya might hesitate, but then so might Revan because she was one of his most influential instructors. You can also say she might not. That's not a very strong argument to make

Rayla_Felana's Avatar


Rayla_Felana
11.27.2012 , 06:10 PM | #63
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
Right, but Revan commanded an army significantly bigger/better then the Republic did during the Battle of Telos. Keep that in mind. The Republic was WAY better off before the Jedi Civil War. Remember: Revan's powerbase comes from the early Mandalorian War. These are two VERY different Republics we're talking about here....
I am not stating the navies are comparable, but I am making the assertion that in skirmishes across different sectors, this one armada could take on any collection of ships put forth by Revan, unless it was an overwhelming large force, in which case, they'd never engage it anyway.

It is like Vader's Death Squadron, obviously it would not take on every ship the rebels had, but it could take on massive amounts of rebel ships and still be victorious.

I also want to make it clear that Sion had his own fleet as well, but it was rarely seen and was not of similar size to Nihilus' armada.

BlazingShadow's Avatar


BlazingShadow
11.27.2012 , 06:10 PM | #64
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
Right, but Revan commanded an army significantly bigger/better then the Republic did during the Battle of Telos. Keep that in mind. The Republic was WAY better off before the Jedi Civil War. Remember: Revan's powerbase comes from the early Mandalorian War. These are two VERY different Republics we're talking about here....
Same ships, different cannon fodder.

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.27.2012 , 06:19 PM | #65
Quote: Originally Posted by BlazingShadow View Post
Same ships, different cannon fodder.
Seriously? It's canon that Revan's fleet would have been significantly bigger then the Republic fleet during the battle of Telos. Are you disagreeing with this? Here's the difference of the Republic of these 2 times:

Republic during the Mandalorian Wars
- experienced 30 years of peace before war they're in way better shape for a war

Republic of the Battle of Telos
- had experienced the Mando War, Jedi Civil War, and was in the midst of the Dark War.

Difference = huge

Please accept that.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.27.2012 , 06:22 PM | #66
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
Seriously? It's canon that Revan's fleet would have been significantly bigger then the Republic fleet during the battle of Telos. Are you disagreeing with this? Here's the difference of the Republic of these 2 times:

Republic during the Mandalorian Wars
- experienced 30 years of peace before war they're in way better shape for a war

Republic of the Battle of Telos
- had experienced the Mando War, Jedi Civil War, and was in the midst of the Dark War.

Difference = huge

Please accept that.
While Revan's fleet is much larger than that of the one Nihilus faced at Telos, it is highly unlikely that they will bring everything to bear on one fleet. If they did, the Ravager and its fleet would just leave. There is no need to engage in a battle that you can't win. If the Ravager fleet fought a standard Republic fleet, the Republic would lose.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
11.27.2012 , 06:25 PM | #67
Quote: Originally Posted by BlazingShadow View Post
You are stating what you think, which is not the same as what is.

1) It took Meetra Surik, Mandalore, Visas Marr, the Republic, Onderon, and the Mandalorians to destroy the Ravager and defeat the Sith at Telos. Napoleon was ultimately defeated-twice-is he not still regarded as one of the greatest military minds of all time? You don't have a valid point to make here, you simply "feel" a certain way about it. You've never seen Revan's fleet defeated before? Oh, goodness. If not seeing something were the same as knowing something was not... It's like saying "I've never seen the Patriots lose this season, so surely they're not going to lose!"

2) Ignorance. The assassins work by feeding off their oponent's strength. It is not a battle of willpower, it is a matching of power. The assassins are similar to Darth Nihilus because of their ability to feed off of the force. They become stronger when their prey is stronger in the force. That results in the death of every jedi under Revan's command and the strengthening of Traya's forces.
P.S. Larger armies don't win wars either. Look at conflicts across the world today for proof of that.

3) It was a reiteration of my previous point to answer your statement. Everyone under Sion's and Nihilus' control is under Traya's control for this Kaggath. That means a fleet of warships, Sith military, the Ravager, Sith Assassins that feed off the force, and the scores of Sith Lords, Marauders, Apprentices and Masters that also followed the SIth Triumverate. At any rate, you don't win a conflict with numbers alone. Cunning and strategy account for far more than Revan's troops, and Revan is not in a position to be nearly as cunning, ruthless, or effective as Traya's forces.

4) She does have troops, she does have a fleet, but the entire point is that she needs no fleet in order to destroy Revan. The loss of the Harbinger proves that. No, you don't need a decoy ship to pull it off, you could hypothetically plant groups of assassins everywhere across the galaxy where Revan's forces travel, just sneak them on all of his ships and, like a cancer, become quite malign and rip Revan's power base from under him. Revan cannot do the same.

5) Willpower has nothing to do with it, emotion has nothing to do with it because this is a hypothetical battle. Don't get me wrong, you can "say" Traya might hesitate, but then so might Revan because she was one of his most influential instructors. You can also say she might not. That's not a very strong argument to make
I do appriciate the irony of you telling me my points are only what I think, while youre the one insulting me...

1.) You also have no proof Traya's fleet would win against Revan's. For sure without Nihillius. I "feel", based on facts, that Revan would win. Obviously you are free to disagree.

2.) Knowledge(?). http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_Assassin So wait.... assassins kill Force Sensitives, but can't do much against normal soldiers.... well, that's a problem. Mira faced one and survived, I'm sure Republic troops could too. So each Jedi just needs a normal-person escort? Problem solved!

3.) "Cunning and strategy account for far more than Revan's troops, and Revan is not in a position to be nearly as cunning, ruthless, or effective as Traya's forces": I don't understand how that's a valid argument if it's how you "feel" about it. Revanwas a great stragegist. He actually adapted to his opponents (Mandos) so what's to say he wouldn't do so again?

4.) So.... the assassins will assassinate Revan's entire army?

5.) Revan and Traya have a relationship. That's a fact. They both feel for each other. Traya loves him, called him the heart of the Force. The question is, who would strike first? Revan is pretty ruthless.

Sorry for crowding the pages, y'all!

BlazingShadow's Avatar


BlazingShadow
11.27.2012 , 06:29 PM | #68
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
Seriously? It's canon that Revan's fleet would have been significantly bigger then the Republic fleet during the battle of Telos. Are you disagreeing with this? Here's the difference of the Republic of these 2 times:

Republic during the Mandalorian Wars
- experienced 30 years of peace before war they're in way better shape for a war

Republic of the Battle of Telos
- had experienced the Mando War, Jedi Civil War, and was in the midst of the Dark War.

Difference = huge

Please accept that.
I meant literally same ship types. Also, let me emphasize the second part of my quote, "Different cannon fodder". again there's no guarantee that the larger fleet at Revan's disposal is even an effective advantage given the nature of the Dark War sith. 30 years of peace also means 30 years of atrophied war instinct. Yeah, Revan is a great leader and he made up for the Mandalorian's capability versus the Republic greenhorns, but his armies are still naive, "green", unlike the Veteran Sith forces under Traya's command, all Force capabilities aside.

And oh my god if I actually have to explain what makes the Sith forces veteran forces I will have a heart attack.

BlazingShadow's Avatar


BlazingShadow
11.27.2012 , 06:44 PM | #69
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
I do appriciate the irony of you telling me my points are only what I think, while youre the one insulting me...

1.) You also have no proof Traya's fleet would win against Revan's. For sure without Nihillius. I "feel", based on facts, that Revan would win. Obviously you are free to disagree.

2.) Knowledge(?). http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_Assassin So wait.... assassins kill Force Sensitives, but can't do much against normal soldiers.... well, that's a problem. Mira faced one and survived, I'm sure Republic troops could too. So each Jedi just needs a normal-person escort? Problem solved!

3.) "Cunning and strategy account for far more than Revan's troops, and Revan is not in a position to be nearly as cunning, ruthless, or effective as Traya's forces": I don't understand how that's a valid argument if it's how you "feel" about it. Revanwas a great stragegist. He actually adapted to his opponents (Mandos) so what's to say he wouldn't do so again?

4.) So.... the assassins will assassinate Revan's entire army?

5.) Revan and Traya have a relationship. That's a fact. They both feel for each other. Traya loves him, called him the heart of the Force. The question is, who would strike first? Revan is pretty ruthless.

Sorry for crowding the pages, y'all!
Wrong.

1) Yes, there's no definitive proof either way but I give specific reasons for the defeat at Telos, you give feelings.

2) Okay, WRONG. Go back to Wookiepedia, or better yet Play KOTOR 2 again because you obviously were not paying attention to the events of the Harbinger. Jedi = Dead, normal troops just as much.

3) We are not accounting for adaptability, this is a hypothetical Kaggath match with both power bases as they were with the previously established limitations - Revan's forces as they were during the Mandalorian Wars, and Traya's forces. Even if you argue "adaptability", you're mary-sueing your way out of the fight. Revan's adaptability is easily countered by Traya's ability to sever individuals from the force, so who's to say she can't do that immediately to Revan and his Jedi and end the fight right there. She did it to three Jedi Masters, I'm sure she can take down droves of Knights easily and even sever Revan, unless you want to Mary-Sue your way out of that one too. See how silly it gets? And before you say Meetra Surik, I encourage you to actually look up and understand the circumstances that allowed Meetra to become immune to the Force Bond the two shared and keep Traya from severing her from the force.

4) Actually, that's not too far off. That is exactly what happened with the Harbinger. Crew members started suddenly disappearing... and, well, you ought to know what happened after that. There were no survivors save for the Exile, the droids HK-50, T3-M4, HK-47 (barely), and Kreia herself, who was there to save the Exile anyways, who all are "hero"-class characters.

5) it's like you're slamming your head against a brick wall and expecting to break it before your head breaks. Revan is now pretty ruthless? Do you have evidence of this? You are really making this assertion even though at this point he still has all his memories of his mentor and is not full darkside? When Traya is darkside and Traya's own actions against Meetra, the "other one she loved" were actually documented and can be labeled objectively ruthless? LOL, ok.

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
11.27.2012 , 06:58 PM | #70
So, I've decided not to address any arguments that I feel are personal attacks, as to not encourage them to continue.

Quote: Originally Posted by BlazingShadow View Post
4) Actually, that's not too far off. That is exactly what happened with the Harbinger. Crew members started suddenly disappearing... and, well, you ought to know what happened after that. There were no survivors save for the Exile, the droids HK-50, T3-M4, HK-47 (barely), and Kreia herself, who was there to save the Exile anyways, who all are "hero"-class characters.
It happened on the Harbringer, but any other ships? I fail to see how an entire army could be destroyed by assassins... and even if it could, it would take a long time. Enough time for Revan to win. Also, if the assassins could single-handedly take down the Republic, why didn't they?

I will say a little something about my "Revan is ruthless" comment before I stop responding to this little continuation of arguments "Blazing Shadow" and I have going on here. Revan was a true patriot. Or maybe he just liked to fight. Either way, he defied the council and fought for the Republic. If he discovers his old master has turned to the darkside, he will have no problem defeating her for the good of the Republic and the Jedi. And to win the war. Because he likes winning.